Zimmerman Found Not Guilty

[I-10east]

TMZ has some good coverage of the verdict, hell more factual and newsworthy than MSNBC

www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1U6x5Y0aVw

[acme54321]

I am glad you are back to making reasonable points. I agree the laws are the biggest problem in this case.

I am still wondering when he cocked that slide? Certainly the contention isn't that he pulled the gun during the fisticuffs (that were in this one magical instance going to lead to death), released the safety, operated the two hand action of the slide but then couldn't execute a warning shot or a leg shot  instead of a perfect "one shot one kill" style shot to the middle of TM's heart.

Serious question:  Have you ever fired a pistol?  Or a firearm? 

Shotguns many times, a rifle twice and the only hand guns were for BBs and pellets.  Clay pigeons and a few failed hunting trips.

My question was serious as well is that not a two hand action gun?

No.  It's double action with no external safety.  As long as there is a round in the chamber it will fire if the trigger is pulled.  A round would be chambered before the weapon is holstered.  Not many concealed carry guns have traditional safeties or require a round be chambered immediately before firing, those features would defeat the purpose.

Additionally, firing any sort of warning shot is extremely bad practice and illegal.

[Cheshire Cat]

Thank you for you words and insight.  If I may Ennis, I think it is the volatile double standard when it comes to the use of racially charge words like ni@@er that bothers many non Blacks along with some sense of discrimination toward Whites who simply because they are White are thought to harbor racist feelings or indifferent to the struggles of low income individuals including Blacks.  Nothing could be farther from the truth.

I don't know if you have been over to the "profiling" thread, but there is an overlap discussion there about this issue. When you get the time will you check out the conversation there and respond.  I am wondering if there is a way to move the conversation on the profile thread to this one to maintain clarity?  I also intend to engage other portions of your post as well. 

[Demosthenes]

I think thats fair.

I think what occurred was a tragedy. I think the efforts to paint Zimmerman or Martin as a saint or villain are misplaced.

Martain was not just a poor little kid with Skittles and Arizona Iced tea. He was a cocksure, wanna be thug who decided to confront the "cracker" who was bothering him. I dont think anyone should be harassed while walking around, and I dont know what I might have done in his shoes.

Conversely, I have been in Zimmermans shoes. He was trying to do a good thing. He was perhaps a bit too agressive, but not the point of confronting anyone. Yes, he probably should not have gotten out of his car, but there is no law against that either.

There are a lot of different ways things could have gone down that night. There was no racism. There was simply a series of moderately bad decisions on behalf of two people. Zimmermans mistake getting out his car, and Martins was to jump someone who he had no idea if he was armed or not. This led to one life ended, and the other one basically ruined.

Its sad, and as much as we try to paint it as a black and white issue, its so nuanced that its a folly to try to make it seem simple.

[thelakelander]

Thank you for you words and insight.  If I may Ennis, I think it is the volatile double standard when it comes to the use of racially charge words like ni@@er that bothers many non Blacks along with some sense of discrimination toward Whites who simply because they are White are thought to harbor racist feelings or indifferent to the struggles of low income individuals including Blacks.  Nothing could be farther from the truth.

I don't know.  This stuff is ingrained in many after years of injustices.  For all I know, to some, the level of hopelessness can be so great that it could feel like that word is all they have.  It took centuries to get to where we're at today and it could take centuries to turn things around. However, keep in mind, you're dealing with a situation where you're looking at a portion of the population that has a higher poverty rate and lower access to educational opportunities many take for granted.  It's an environment and economic situation that many will never truly understand or grasp. 

However, I know this.  Change the environment and economic status, change the results for future generations.  That not only applies to the example I gave with my grandfather but also well known families, such as the Kennedys.

I don't know if you have been over to the "profiling" thread, but there is an overlap discussion there about this issue. When you get the time will you check out the conversation there and respond.  I am wondering if there is a way to move the conversation on the profile thread to this one to maintain clarity?

I haven't had time to look.  Partially because I've been working today and partially because some of the opinions/ignorance infuriates me.

[Cheshire Cat]

^  When you do look, I think you will see we have many parallel thoughts. 

[NotNow]

[Demosthenes]

I think that there is some confusion also in what Zimmerman was tried under. He did not claim innocent under the Shoot First law. He claimed self defense.

Be mad at shoot first all you want, but it wasnt what got him acquitted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DreD3TjByv4

[Cheshire Cat]

Thanks for sharing this NN.

[JeffreyS]

Thanks NN, I can't see why if that were requested to be in the jury instructions there would be an issue with it.

[thelakelander]

There are a lot of different ways things could have gone down that night. There was no racism. There was simply a series of moderately bad decisions on behalf of two people. Zimmermans mistake getting out his car, and Martins was to jump someone who he had no idea if he was armed or not. This led to one life ended, and the other one basically ruined.

Its sad, and as much as we try to paint it as a black and white issue, its so nuanced that its a folly to try to make it seem simple.

You can pretty much say the same thing about a person who's had too many drinks at the bar and accidentally kills someone as a result of DUI. Innocent mistakes. Most of the discussion on black vs white issues taking place right now is most likely a major result of GZ walking free.  GZ gets hit with manslaughter and does prison time, then he's no different from Mr. DUI or Southside Chicago murderer who's caught and put behind bars.

[NotNow]

[peestandingup]

Thank you for you words and insight.  If I may Ennis, I think it is the volatile double standard when it comes to the use of racially charge words like ni@@er that bothers many non Blacks along with some sense of discrimination toward Whites who simply because they are White are thought to harbor racist feelings or indifferent to the struggles of low income individuals including Blacks.  Nothing could be farther from the truth.

I don't know.  This stuff is ingrained in many after years of injustices.  For all I know, to some, the level of hopelessness can be so great that it could feel like that word is all they have.  It took centuries to get to where we're at today and it could take centuries to turn things around. However, keep in mind, you're dealing with a situation where you're looking at a portion of the population that has a higher poverty rate and lower access to educational opportunities many take for granted.  It's an environment and economic situation that many will never truly understand or grasp. 

However, I know this.  Change the environment and economic status, change the results for future generations.  That not only applies to the example I gave with my grandfather but also well known families, such as the Kennedys.

I honestly think you've cracked it, Ennis. I'd also go a step further & say that keeping "business as usual" is part of the harsh reality. Prisons need filled, crimes need to be committed, etc in order to sustain what is currently in place. And you dont get that by empowering people, of any race, to truly take control of their situation. Education is also key, but de-funding is the name of that game as well. We can apparently fund endless wars that do nothing, security farces up the wazoo, prisons, etc, but not education. That should tell you something right there.

And it's unfortunate that many blacks (and many under class whites too) aren't educated enough to see the reality of this. So instead, they turn their anger on each other, some random person on the street, or an entire group of regular everyday people for their woes. Its what I was sorta alluding to in my earlier comment on how many blacks are all of a sudden riled up because a black man/teen was shot by a non-black. When blacks killing blacks happens every single day, all over the country. Some go to jail for it, yes. But some don't. And besides, dead is dead. And even the people that get sent to prisons for these crimes are "dead" in a way. Its just another waste of life.

That's why I've mostly kept my mouth shut about this stuff lately when talking to anyone. I feel, although an important case, that it's a huge distraction from the ugly realities of day to day life for many people. And the people arguing about it are completely misguided & not seeing the forest for one single tree.

[thelakelander]

(a)?Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b)?In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

Thanks for sharing this NN.

I don't think anyone can deny the bolded part.  GZ's injuries were not consistent with this thought but it's hard to prove he didn't think TM would kill him.  After all, to him, TM was a thug looking to rob someone in his community.

[NotNow]

There are a lot of different ways things could have gone down that night. There was no racism. There was simply a series of moderately bad decisions on behalf of two people. Zimmermans mistake getting out his car, and Martins was to jump someone who he had no idea if he was armed or not. This led to one life ended, and the other one basically ruined.

Its sad, and as much as we try to paint it as a black and white issue, its so nuanced that its a folly to try to make it seem simple.

You can pretty much say the same thing about a person who's had too many drinks at the bar and accidentally kills someone as a result of DUI. Innocent mistakes. Most of the discussion on black vs white issues taking place right now is most likely a major result of GZ walking free.  GZ gets hit with manslaughter and does prison time, then he's no different from Mr. DUI or Southside Chicago murderer who's caught and put behind bars.

I would actually put it the other way Lake. 

In DUI cases, the act of drinking and then getting behind the wheel establishes negligence. 

In this case, the act of pursuit, continuous surveillance without questioning or verbal contact, even to the point of exiting the vehicle without identification visually or verbally, actually searching for Martin on foot, and the resulting fear that placed in a young Mr. Martin.  That would seem to be the argument that establishes negligence on the part of Mr. Zimmerman leading to manslaughter.