Zimmerman Found Not Guilty

[ronchamblin]

To Ron Chamblin.

Im sorry, I just find your posts boring and nonsensical most of the time.

Im sure thats reciprocal, but I doubt I will ever have anything to add to your stunning grasp of the world as it was understood in 1950.

[thelakelander]

^You have to understand a little American history from the black perspective and be willing to attempt to understand the environment TM was placed in to truly get that post. Nevertheless, why place the burden on the innocent kid, who ended up losing his right to life for absolutely nothing? Do you place any responsibility on the armed grown man who initiated the entire conflict? Your comments are reflected in the Gawker article copied a few posts back.

[sheclown]

^You have to understand a little American history from the black perspective and be willing to attempt to understand the environment TM was placed in to truly get that post. Nevertheless, why place the burden on the innocent kid, who ended up losing his right to life for absolutely nothing? Do you place any responsibility on the armed grown man who initiated the entire conflict? Your comments are reflected in the Gawker article copied a few posts back.

+1

[Cheshire Cat]

Can everyone stop tweaking each other over this issue and speak with reason as opposed to instigating conversational flare ups or diluting Trayvon's death and Zimmermans prosecution with incidents from the past at this time?  You called me this and I called you that etc. etc. etc. is taking this dialog nowhere. 

Clearly there is a very important conversation to be had in our society regarding race relations, the legal system and gun control to name a few issues but that conversation has to be reasonable.  I have found that reasonable people can have reasonably different perceptions about anything in life and that has been proved out more recently as a result of the death of Trayvon Martin, the reactions to his death and Zimmerman's trial.  I think all of the varying discussion can only be had in a mature and respectful way and if it can't then the conversation should end here as there is noting productive to be had of further confrontation in words. 

I think the way to walk through this discussion is to begin with the trial itself and why Zimmerman was not convicted of the murder 2 charge Angela Corey went with in this trial.  What unfolded in the trial and was shown by the the not guilty verdict is not a continuation of racism but rather evidences problematic laws in our state, how they are administered and the types of verdicts they end up with after trial by jury.  Clearly many persons think the system failed Trayvon.  If that is the case, the appropriate course of action is to change the laws and how they are administered.  We can legislate race crimes but we can't legislate what is in a bigots heart and bigots come in all shapes, sizes and colors.  That is a separate conversation waiting to be had

A "not guilty" verdict for Zimmerman does not mean he is without "guilt".  It means that the prosecution led by Angela Corey failed to make their case.  I watched most of the trial and heard a good deal of the testimony and legal instructions.  The State failed Trayvon and that was because they failed to make a fact based case that was "free of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt", they just did.  They also failed to properly prepare their witnesses both civilian and expert as well.

We all know that Trayvon would still be alive if Zimmerman had kept his rear end planted in his car.  The reality is that he did not and the situation went downhill from the moment he left his car.  However leaving his car and following Trayvon in spite of an officer telling him "We don't need you to do that" was not legally a criminal act.  His actions were incredibly foolish and self serving in more ways than one but they were not illegal.  The trial was also not about the "stand your ground" law but rather focused on the idea of self defense.  So in order to deal with the aftermath of the Zimmerman not guilty verdict we have to understand why it was rendered.
 

[fsquid]

Agree with Cheshire, the state failed to prove its case.  Be made at the state or the law, but not the jury or anything else.

[Cheshire Cat]

This should not be an argument about gun laws at this time.  A gun was what physically killed Trayvon, but not the reason he was pursued and ended up dead.  The state and federal law discussion about guns was and is bigger than this case.  If Sandyhook didn't change perceptions, Trayvon's death by single gunshot won't either.  This issues surrounding this case are multiple.

[Cheshire Cat]

Agree with Cheshire, the state failed to prove its case.  Be made at the state or the law, but not the jury or anything else.

  Thank you fsquid.  I think this is the conversation that needs to be had first, one specifically about the trial and the verdict.  Only then can people reasonably wade into all the "other" very deep issues attached to this young man's death.

[Cheshire Cat]

Can everyone stop tweaking each other over this issue and speak with reason as opposed to instigating conversational flare ups or diluting Trayvon's death and Zimmermans prosecution with incidents from the past at this time?  You called me this and I called you that etc. etc. etc. is taking this dialog nowhere. 

Clearly there is a very important conversation to be had in our society regarding race relations, the legal system and gun control to name a few issues but that conversation has to be reasonable.  I have found that reasonable people can have reasonably different perceptions about anything in life and that has been proved out more recently as a result of the death of Trayvon Martin, the reactions to his death and Zimmerman's trial.  I think all of the varying discussion can only be had in a mature and respectful way and if it can't then the conversation should end here as there is noting productive to be had of further confrontation in words. 

I think the way to walk through this discussion is to begin with the trial itself and why Zimmerman was not convicted of the murder 2 charge Angela Corey went with in this trial.  What unfolded in the trial and was shown by the the not guilty verdict is not a continuation of racism but rather evidences problematic laws in our state, how they are administered and the types of verdicts they end up with after trial by jury.  Clearly many persons think the system failed Trayvon.  If that is the case, the appropriate course of action is to change the laws and how they are administered.  We can legislate race crimes but we can't legislate what is in a bigots heart and bigots come in all shapes, sizes and colors.  That is a separate conversation waiting to be had

A "not guilty" verdict for Zimmerman does not mean he is without "guilt".  It means that the prosecution led by Angela Corey failed to make their case.  I watched most of the trial and heard a good deal of the testimony and legal instructions.  The State failed Trayvon and that was because they failed to make a fact based case that was free of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt", they just did.  They also failed to properly prepare their witnesses both civilian and expert as well.

We all know that Trayvon would still be alive if Zimmerman had kept his rear end planted in his car.  The reality is that he did not and the situation went downhill from the moment he left his car.  However leaving his car and following Trayvon in spite of an officer telling him "We don't need you to do that was not legally a criminal act.  His actions were incredibly foolish and self serving in more ways than one but they were not illegal.  The trial was also not about the "stand your ground" law but rather focused on the idea of self defense.  So in order to deal with the aftermath of the Zimmerman not guilty verdict we have to understand why it was rendered.
 

(So in order to deal with the aftermath of the Zimmerman not guilty verdict we have to understand why it was rendered.) Because Mark O'mara was a much better Attorney!

Mark O'mara is a skilled attorney but he did not come up with the failed murder 2 charge, Angela Corey did and by doing so knew she was putting her prosecutors in the difficult position of proving that charge beyond a reasonable doubt.  Not only did she fail doing so, but she also instructed "evidence" held by the prosecution be illegally withheld from the defense.  Her own staff member pointed this out to her and of course was fired for daring to call this inappropriate action to her attention.  She and her team are now facing serious sanctions as complaints have already been filed. 

[Cheshire Cat]

Agree with Cheshire, the state failed to prove its case.  Be made at the state or the law, but not the jury or anything else.

  Thank you fsquid.  I think this is the conversation that needs to be had first, one specifically about the trial and the verdict.  Only then can people reasonably wade into all the "other" very deep issues attached to this young man's death.

So Cheshire Cat if the State of Florida did a better job in the courtroom everybody the State felt was Guilty would be found Guilty

No, that is inaccurate.  The truth of the matter is that the State should only go for charges that they know they can prove.  In this case Corey overcharged using a murder 2.  Had the state gone with a manslaughter charge, had prepared their witnesses and had more competent expert testimony, they may have gotten a conviction.  But they did not and in fact they failed to prove malice of any sort when Corey proclaimed this incident was "never about race".  In doing so she sidestepped the truth in the minds and hearts of many and as a result her team failed to prove that Zimmerman had hatred, ill will or malice in his heart when he shot Trayvon.  Angela overcharged in this case as she has often done in the past.  This time that tendency to overreach turned around and bit her on the backside. 

[Cheshire Cat]

What happened to the staff member who spoke out against Corey holding back info from the defense.

http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2013-07-13/story/state-attorney-angela-corey-fires-information-technology-director-who#ixzz2Z4IW2kT2

[thelakelander]

^You have to understand a little American history from the black perspective and be willing to attempt to understand the environment TM was placed in to truly get that post. Nevertheless, why place the burden on the innocent kid, who ended up losing his right to life for absolutely nothing? Do you place any responsibility on the armed grown man who initiated the entire conflict? Your comments are reflected in the Gawker article copied a few posts back.

Look George Zimmerman was stupid in a lot of ways. Sure George should have waited for the police or at best just gone about his way. But should Have, would have or could have will not change what did happen in this case.

Have you been reading any of my previous posts? While disappointed, I'm not surprised and I have no problems with the jury or the system. I have a problem with the law. I'm hoping this case leads to a change so future lives won't be lost because of this type of nonsense.

[thelakelander]

Understood. In any event, I have no problem with the jury or system. It was clear that the state did not prove murder 2 without reasonable doubt.

[Cheshire Cat]

Understood. In any event, I have no problem with the jury or system. It was clear that the state did not prove murder 2 without reasonable doubt.

Well then as Cheshire Cat said "Angela overcharged in this case as she has often done in the past." But it wasn't even Murder in the second degree that was the problem the jury didn't even go with manslaughter? And the Judge had to throw out "third-degree murder based on child abuse?" So if Angela would have started with Manslaughter then aggravated assault or something lower I guess George could have been convicted?

Re read post 140 above.  Had the case be charged differently and handed more competently, a manslaughter charge would have been possible depending upon the level of the charge and lawful requirements of proof.

[thelakelander]

I'm no attorney but manslaughter appears pretty evident to me. At the end of the day, a kid was killed and the instigator/shooter gets off. Nevertheless, I don't think this situation is over. Things are just beginning and hopefully, the result is a positive one for all that saves lives.

[I-10east]

Maybe Al Sharpton should focus a little bit of his time addressing the black and black violence with demonstrations in places like Chicago instead of the 100% effort in bringing down the big bad Purple People Eater George Zimmerman; Although that Trayvon case brought alot of loot to MSNBC, so who can blame him....