Khan's Jacksonville Shipyards Plans Revealed

[Marle Brando]

If you can't find ONE, just one positive thing to say about the proposal then yes, id say your issue is personal. Nobody on this board is attacking you personally or your opinion. Its your choice of words and passion about all thats wrong that makes it feel that theres a personal issue with Khan, Jax, or something. And maybe thats why you feel as though you are being attacked Simms. No disrespect to you, I'm just a guy behind a keyboard, same as you are to me so our opinions are just opinions based off feelings towards an issue, not the person. I still live, work, breathe, sleep, play in downtown Jacksonville so forgive me for feeling a little more invested and a little more excited about the buzz and possibilities that may come to my neighborhood. I live on church st to be exact. Hows San Fran living, i don't know and won't pretend to because I'm not there. Im here. Right now. In downtown less than a mile from the site and Im cool with it. Hope it happens, because hope is what we got today.

[JoeMerchant]

Out of all the money and time exhausted by experts, Khan seemed to have hired the wrong one.

[Marle Brando]

I understood the fields to also be flex space, which is essentially what convention space is. I mean if you close the indoor field is that not big enough to hold an auto show or home and patio convention. Its also surrounded by meeting rooms behind the glass levels.
But the devil is surely in the details and I guess i'll reserve any further excitement until next Tuesday.

[simms3]

The idea/concept of something occupying the shipyards and creating useful public and private space is fantastic.  But I can't sit here and drool over it when it seems like less than a half-assed proposal.  I'm not trying to compare concept to concept, merely presentation to presentation.

Some comments on this thread are that Kahn has hired a major architect.  Khan has resources.  Khan will get this done.

Well, from what I see, Khan hired a sports stadium architect for one, and two, the renderings provided are of low quality, so Khan has not spent a lot of money from what I can see, to date.

Also, Khan, the man himself, is no real estate man.  No engineer.  No architect.  He does have the money to hire the best, though.  It would appear he has not done so.

Finally, aside from buying a team, taking on taxpayer funds to build jumbotrons, and taking on the role of the "face of Jacksonville" and enjoying a dense spotlight/media attention all while "trying" to do this or that or proposing whatever, what HAS he done in the 3.5 years since arriving?  Before we know it, he'll be at the halfway point of an average tenure of ownership stake in an NFL franchise.

And yes, my standards are pretty high in general and the standards of those I work for are quite literally impossibly high so I'm used to A LOT of pressure, so when I see this proposal by a billionaire man people literally seem to worship and it's for possibly the most important site in the entire city, and it looks not even halfway up to par and looks like nobody has a real concrete plan or sense of numbers, then YEA, I jump on the offensive.

You guys should have more pride in your city than to bend over and take it from anyone who comes around with some bacon in hand.  Maybe from 2500 miles away I just have more pride and think the presentation can be 10x as good as it is in its current state, *especially* coming from the new god of Jacksonville.  I'll keep my eyes open for whatever is presented on Monday.

[edjax]

Maybe the rooftop field will end up being surrounded by a wall similar to the one for the rooftop park at the San Fancisco Transbay Center.

[JeffreyS]

He is in fact an engineer.

[simms3]

Maybe the rooftop field will end up being surrounded by a wall similar to the one for the rooftop park at the San Fancisco Transbay Center.

Maybe (but it'd have to be a huge wall in this case because we are talking about a football field where footballs get kicked up into the air and where there are field goals).  It's still a weird proposal.  To think that he's going to have office turrets sticking up out of that mixed use/indoor practice field building labeled as "retail/mixed-use" with views out over a football field on a roof.  I wouldn't go so far as to say it's "thinking outside the box" in a positive, contributory way, but it is weird.

[blizz01]

I attack a presentation, and then get personally attacked for it.  I would expect no less.

He must think Jax citizens are dumb (and in fact, he may be right in that).  Half of you guys salivated at this and ate it up!

^^^I'd say the kid gloves came off right about there...

[peestandingup]

He must think Jax citizens are dumb (and in fact, he may be right in that).  Half of you guys salivated at this and ate it up!  90% of what is shown IS NOT POSSIBLE, or REALISTIC.  He rendered a hot air balloon in paint and threw that in.  He has football fields on top of buildings!

Roosevelt Stadium in Union City



Milwaukee soccer field


Various soccer fields in Asia



I don't see how having a rooftop practice field is "impossible" when others are doing it. Care to fill us in? This is Khan, he always goes for glitz, glamor & things you don't normally see. I seriously doubt he would blow smoke up everyone's asses if it wasn't possible.

If he wants one, he'll make it happen. It seems to be the way he rolls.

[simms3]

^^^I guess proven wrong.  Your Asian examples are much better for your argument than your American examples, though.  And of course he'll make one happen if he wants.  But if he has the money to put football fields on buildings on the riverfront, one would think he'd have the money for better renderings and more of a plan so we know kinda sorta how he's going to do this and what it may look like??

[edjax]

The idea/concept of something occupying the shipyards and creating useful public and private space is fantastic.  But I can't sit here and drool over it when it seems like less than a half-assed proposal.  I'm not trying to compare concept to concept, merely presentation to presentation.

Some comments on this thread are that Kahn has hired a major architect.  Khan has resources.  Khan will get this done.

Well, from what I see, Khan hired a sports stadium architect for one, and two, the renderings provided are of low quality, so Khan has not spent a lot of money from what I can see, to date.

Also, Khan, the man himself, is no real estate man.  No engineer.  No architect.  He does have the money to hire the best, though.  It would appear he has not done so.

Finally, aside from buying a team, taking on taxpayer funds to build jumbotrons, and taking on the role of the "face of Jacksonville" and enjoying a dense spotlight/media attention all while "trying" to do this or that or proposing whatever, what HAS he done in the 3.5 years since arriving?  Before we know it, he'll be at the halfway point of an average tenure of ownership stake in an NFL franchise.

And yes, my standards are pretty high in general and the standards of those I work for are quite literally impossibly high so I'm used to A LOT of pressure, so when I see this proposal by a billionaire man people literally seem to worship and it's for possibly the most important site in the entire city, and it looks not even halfway up to par and looks like nobody has a real concrete plan or sense of numbers, then YEA, I jump on the offensive.

You guys should have more pride in your city than to bend over and take it from anyone who comes around with some bacon in hand.  Maybe from 2500 miles away I just have more pride and think the presentation can be 10x as good as it is in its current state, *especially* coming from the new god of Jacksonville.  I'll keep my eyes open for whatever is presented on Monday.

I believe your comment about the average owner in the NFL being 8 years is also incorrect.  There are currently only 10 owners who have owned their team for less than 8 years.  5 of them are new owners as the heirs to the original owner whom passed away so in reality owned by same family for many years. The other 2 are here where prior owner who owned team for 17 years and in Buffalo where current owners replaced Wilson who owned the team for approximately 50 years.

[simms3]

^^^I never quoted 8 years.  Just said the halfway mark for current average will be here before we know it.  There are outliers who have owned their teams for many decades.  But the NFL as a business model has changed and evolved in the past 1-2 decades, and particularly in the past 5 years.  To see ~10 year cycles for most teams going forward would not be surprising at all.  This is more and more about seasoned business owners like Khan harvesting a bit of value in a stable, backed/sponsored operating business (and thus contributing to the sponsor, the NFL) than it is old families holding onto their legacy.

[thelakelander]

At the risk of sounding like a negative nancy, ugh, where to begin?!?

1) Docks for boats smaller than 300 ft long are not protected in any way from channel wakes, so the setup for the docks is a bit unrealistic

2) Too many palm trees

3) I know just placeholders, but if these are to be just placeholders, I'd rather see conceptual massing alone, and NUMBERS, more of an official plan.  Not a Microsoft Paint render of some stuff thrown together.

It will be interesting to see what the numbers actually are. For anyone who listened to the announcement, did they mention any?

4) There is some sort of disconnect, a major one, between what's graphically shown in the renderings, and the actual size/layout of the piers in place (not even considering their structural integrity)

It appears that the two westernmost piers would have to be removed and much of the waterfront filled in for this plan to happen.

5) Do I see rendered wood all over the place as a floor material for riverwalks/piers?  Have we not learned our lesson?

6) WTF, a hot air balloon poorly rendered in Paint on one of the slides?  Really?

7) The architecture - again, I know just a placeholder, but this architecture doesn't even attempt to communicate at all to the history and aesthetics of Jacksonville.  It's very blase, yes, so that's a strike but forgiveable for the fact that I'm ASSUMING this is all a placeholder, but it's not even a blase that works for Jax.

8 ) The Naval ship is going to just hang off of one of the piers into the channel current?  Someone DID NOT think that through at all.

Looking at the renderings and an aerial of the existing site, the ship appears doesn't appear to hanging into the channel current.

9) Is it just me or is one of the slides completely lifted from the design of the Miami Central Station with some additions of glass and a color scheme switcharoo?  Namely, the slide below the one where the Naval ship is precariously hanging on by a thread to the end of one of these piers.  Last slide on Pg 2

Miami AAF


Khan's Shipyards

10) The 2nd slide on Pg 3 - wtf.  Seriously, wtf.  "Play" is the theme.  But play on what?  An area of wooden boards and a pointless unattractive riverwalk feature that inclines up in the middle like a bridge?  The whole thing seems pointless.  "Boardwalk Bridge" is its label on next slide.  And here we go with the wood again!

11) Offices that don't appear to be structurally possible as rendered given what's there now, WITH A FOOTBALL FIELD ON TOP.

11a) First of all, that football field is comfortably on top.  How F'ing big are these floorplates here?  Nobody on this team has studied real estate, let alone the Jax market.  For everyone's reference, a football field is 51,200 sf.  An avg tower floorplate size is 15-25k sf and an avg suburban building floorplate might be 25-35k sf.  You don't want your whole building taken up by hallways and common space, so you design for efficiency - either floorplates that are easily subdividable (like a basic square of ~20k sf) or you design for single-tenant floorplates, knowing that there is a market for such.

This building has to be 120k-150k sf floorplates in an impossibly inefficient shape/design.  I could write an essay on how bad it appears to be.  Maybe some posters in the local real estate market, namely some office brokers or investment sales associates who follow this board can comment.  It just seems....offensive to my eyes.  This isn't SF or NYC where a tech tenant might take the whole darn thing, or easily and happily fill 100+k sf floorplates.

11b) Football on a roof 100 ft up above the public - yea that's realistic.  Why render it if you can't do it?  Is it a joke?

12) OH WAIT, nvm, that was RETAIL/MIXED-USE?!?!?!?!?!?!  Even worse, wtf is that!!  I've gotta stop now.

I think it's a football field on the roof of an indoor practice facility and football field. With that said, I have questions about it too and will be looking forward to learning more about it.

[edjax]

^^^I never quoted 8 years.  Just said the halfway mark for current average will be here before we know it.  There are outliers who have owned their teams for many decades.  But the NFL as a business model has changed and evolved in the past 1-2 decades, and particularly in the past 5 years.  To see ~10 year cycles for most teams going forward would not be surprising at all.  This is more and more about seasoned business owners like Khan harvesting a bit of value in a stable, backed/sponsored operating business (and thus contributing to the sponsor, the NFL) than it is old families holding onto their legacy.

Oh the semantics games now.  You said he was at 3.5 years and nearing the half way point of NFL ownership.  So I gave you the benefit of the doubt and assumed you were alluding to 8 years.  Now you change it to a recent change in the last decade but yet only 3 in the past decade have new owners that did not either replace a long term owner or now own due to inheritance of the team. And the 10 year cycle going forward would,not be a surprise?  So now you are predicting the future. You just made that part up to try and make your argument.  Made up things presented as facts.  My guess happens alot.  Just an observation. 

[peestandingup]

^^^I guess proven wrong.  Your Asian examples are much better for your argument than your American examples, though.  And of course he'll make one happen if he wants.  But if he has the money to put football fields on buildings on the riverfront, one would think he'd have the money for better renderings and more of a plan so we know kinda sorta how he's going to do this and what it may look like??

I too would've liked to have seen better renderings, like what the obvious walls or guards they would need on a field like that over an urban area. And I also mentioned in another thread how there were no safety railings whatsoever on basically anything preventing someone from falling to their deaths all over the place. But then again, I take it with a grain of salt & realize this is a rough rendering. That stuff will get worked out.