Khan's Jacksonville Shipyards Plans Revealed

[thelakelander]

^^^Generally, I equate live oaks with Savannah, Jax, NOLA, Charleston, AL - Steel Magnolias MS, Houston.  Sort of that I-10 corridor up to coastal SC and down into Orlando a bit. I equate palm trees with S Florida and SoCal.  But as someone who hasn't been "Floridian" for a long time, I like SoFL more and more.  I can totally see why heading further south on I-95 where it's warmer and there are more palm trees, especially if you are from a northern climate, is appealing.

I do wish Jax didn't have such severe cold snaps in the winter so that more tropical plants could be planted.  But seeing coconut or royal palms in a render knowing that's quite literally an impossibility turns me off to a degree.  It just seems lazy...maybe it's because there aren't graphics for non-tropical palms for non-tropical places like Jax.  Maybe it's because it's been proven that having tropical palms in your renderings is good for business, even if it's a gross mis-characterization.  Would love to hear straight out of an architect's mouth - Lake?

^I personally prefer native landscaping and architecture based off the era we live in today using building materials that are available to us. As far as the conceptual rendering goes, I'm fine with it. It's obvious, it's developed the way it is to excite the public and local officials. I'm interested to see what the financial side of things are. However, I also believe what was shown today will be greatly modified once market analysis is completed. I'm also interested to learn more about the idea of finally doing something with Hogans Creek.

[thelakelander]

Here's a nice overlay graphic, via Twitter:

https://pbs.twimg.com/tweet_video/B-EzHwQIMAI-AZr.mp4

Nice graphic. For whoever asked about the aquarium, it looks like Khan's plan penetrates the former Kids Kampus area of Metropolitan Park as well.

[simms3]

Well the nice thing about global warming is we can probably have tropical plants in the landscape by the time it's built.  Of course Jax maybe under water (literally) by then.

And I'm sure you meant the I-95 corridor not I-10.  Remember odd number go North and South, even numbers East and West. 

No.  I fully meant the I-10 corridor.  Houston, Jax, NOLA, are the live oak cities on the 10-corridor.  But perhaps I should have rephrased better, but I meant *separately* up through coastal SC.

[GatorShane]

^^^Of course you do...(3-3 tally). Then the next person obligatorily will like all of the palms, and the palm landslide will begin since I advocated against them...

LOL!!

[thelakelander]

Ennis, I have not kept up on this the way you have but I think I recall you once mentioning that the Shipyards is not something that is interfaced directly with downtown.  This project sure looks flashy that much is true but something about it is uncomfortable to me.  It is so not Jacksonville or N.E. Florida.  I like exciting and dramatic projects and am thrilled that the Shipyards may be made viable but why must Jacksonville always get distracted by shiny objects? lol  Just not particularly in love with this idea, it doesn't feel right as if it belongs with the other big failed projects in Dubai or China.  But hey, at least it is a positive start after a dry period and years worth of empty promises.  My first thoughts were about how this would interface with a downtown focused on the re-use of historic structures and my next thought was that palm trees are not shade trees and all of those open walkways are going to be some kinda hot in the summer.  I hope Khan's people follow this site though because those doing the designing have no idea of how this is going to interface in a meaning full way with downtown to my view.  Just my initial thoughts along with the realization that the taxpayers are going to be paying a major part of the tab regarding this vision.  Khan leverages his money.  I wonder what the actual working of a deal he has going might be?  I can tell you his support of Alvin Brown means Brown in on the same page with Khan and whatever he proposes.

I'm not too concerned. To me, it's just a conceptual rendering. We've seen hundreds over the last decade. Most tend up being something totally different from what was displayed originally. Just look at the Southbank Riverwalk presentation. The riverwalk appears to be much wider in the concepts than what was actually built. I'll be interested in learning more about the actual financial details, development timeline, results of market analysis, etc.

[simms3]

OMG I cant even!! You guys are right! Lets just leave that 50 acres as a contaminated parking lot that is used as a giant restroom for our DT vagrants!!  Awesome plan Mr Kahn. Thank you for having the vision and the pockets to think differently than some of our esteemed citizens! I love this city so much and I always said if I had the money I would do great things for this city. Not so much any more because I know that whatever I proposed it would get  dissected, ridiculed, picked apart until a billion dollar project turns into another unrealized potential game breaker.....................sound familiar??

You don't frequent development boards, do you.  A *VERY* public/impactful project such as this needs to be publicly dissected.  This project is nothing less than a spectacle for Jax.  It's do or die.  This project would literally be up for public vote in San Francisco.  The public would vote yay or nay on whether they like it.  Someone might put something on the ballot in conjunction with a Yes/No that forces a new direction for the site, in terms of use, height, open space, % affordable housing, etc.

Jax doesn't really put its projects through a rigorous test like some cities do, and we know how we all feel about the DRC and other organizations, so it's up to more or less informed citizens to put out their opinions whenever the other team makes a play - in this case the development team made a big play with PR, video, renderings, PR to all the news sites.  Now it's up for the public to provide feedback.

And another thing - this isn't a single apartment building or suburban office building or hospital.  This is a game changing site.  Khan is a big boy and knows going in that he will expect vocal public feedback, opposing efforts, etc.  If he's smart, he'll welcome all the feedback he can get.  This will only be as successful as the market allows it to be, so it's got to play to that [small] market perfectly.

Part of the reason there are still successful and amazing developments going up in cities generally regarded as "world-class" here in America, and even other major cities such as Atlanta, is because there are smart firms that listen to the public, try to understand the public, and deliver what the public wants.  But on the flip side, in these cities you have a very entrenched public that is acutely aware of EVERYTHING going on in their city and/or their neighborhood.

Part of Jacksonville's long term problem is a disconnect between public/private, public citizenry/public officials, public officials/private businesses.  And a lot of people who just don't mind maintaining that status quo.

An absentee public citizenry in this process will not really help Khan, may result in something atrocious being built or misuse of tax dollars, etc.

There's my counter-argument to yours.

[edjax]

Saw comment from Marck Frisch that after the presentation they played the song "Dont Believe Me, Just Watch Me". And he stated that was certainly not by coincidence. 

[simms3]

As Lake pointed out, today was more about nit-picking a presentation (which I just found a bit lax, that's all), not so much the vision itself.

I do hope that going forward, they provide real substance to each of their PR days/public deliverables.  Like imma be real pissed if the next time we hear from them, nothing has really changed.  Even if they just take it 1 step at a time and deliver some sort of timetable with details on the partnership(s) involved so we know who the players are and where the money may be coming from.  Maybe they hone in on the indoor practice fields and decide to make that phase 1 - there better be better renderings out and an actual plan that lays it all out.  I still fail to see the huge draw of having 2-3 extra practice fields, indoor or not.  So I want to learn about how this will activate the site and how it can be rotated out for other convention type uses - what kinds of events would use the space?  How much space are we talking - will this be an effective replacement of Prime Osborn?  Will SMG manage?  Who gets priority - Jaguars or $ making event - during practice?  Details, details.

Anything less and ya'll will have to endure me for another day.

[thelakelander]

There's not enough space on the Shipyards site to fit a suitable replacement for the Prime Osborn and do some of the other things Khan's interested in.

[CityLife]

My guess is once feasibility studies, market research and due diligence are performed, conceptual plans will change....

Feasibility studies, market research and due diligence by Iguana Investments and the city of Jacksonville will be conducted to determine the specific types of development that would be thrive long-term at the Shipyards.

Representatives from Iguana Investments will deliver a proposal to the Downtown Investment Authority next Monday.

Full article: http://www.news4jax.com/news/shad-khan-unveils-vision-for-shipyards-development/31315240

Agreed. Unless Khan or COJ has a major corporate relocation/office move tied to the development (which isn't inconceivable), I'm just not sure the market is there. Isn't The Beacon Riverside struggling to sell? Not that they are comparable projects, but that should still give a general idea of the market for relatively expensive (for Jax) multi-family units.

Regarding Simms points about quality of the renderings/visuals...Khan/Jags may not be as dependent on financing as similar projects are, and therefore aren't trying to win over investors or financiers before submitting conceptuals for public consumption. He is simply trying to gain public favor to get the city to work with him (or win Brown an election). I'm sure his plans will be refined substantially IF he gets the go ahead from the city. Very few (if any people) get rich by blowing money. Why would he hire someone to create a final product for land he hasn't even acquired yet, and may not even be able to?

That said, IF/when the city does give Khan the land, particularly if they give him a deal on it (whether it be free land, environmental remediation, property tax abatements), they better tie them to specific, enforceable parameters. For instance, if he's given the land for free on the basis of the renderings, you make him deliver on whatever renderings he shows and what he promises to deliver. You don't let him acquire the land for free on the basis of the renderings, only to let him build stucco monstrosities down the road.

[Tacachale]

There are certain species of palms that are native to this area. They just aren't the ones shown in the presentation.

Scrub palmetto and sabal palms are native, I believe.  A few other species can endure a North FL winter.  The kinds of tropical palms rendered will not be the kinds of palms planted at this development, unless they budgeted for a potentially annual replanting.

I like palms and have insisted that my parents move out the beach so that when I "come home" to FL once a year, I can feel like I'm actually somewhere in FL.  We can all dream.

Some palms = good.  I think the rendering used landscaping as a placeholder as well, but I get annoyed when I see renders of North FL proposals complete with Royal Palms and Coconut Palms, etc, knowing it will never look like that.  There is one particular segment of the rendering where there appears to be a palm tree planted every 2 feet.  It seemed a bit over the top.

Ahem.

There are eleven native palms. Five or six of them are natural and/or abundant in Jacksonville (and in some cases substantially farther north) and all but three or four are grown here (the Royal Palm is one that's grown here). Some palms that outsiders associate with Florida or South Florida, like the king palm, coconut tree and queen palm, are introduced species and some are actually invasive.

Several "live oaks" are also abundant here.

[simms3]

^^^I associate Royal Palms with S FL, not even SoCal.  Where are there any in North FL?  I think you and I are saying the same thing, but I can't tell from the way you wrote your post.

[blizz01]

Seems to me that this thread has officially digressed into a palm tree debate - perhaps a new thread is warranted.

I will say though, that the good folks of South Carolina are going to be pretty pissed when they find out that palm trees don't grow there and carry no historical significance.  Guess they'll need to change their state flag & license plates too; and those vinyl Palmetto Moon decals will need to be removed from every other car window. 

[Tacachale]

^^^I associate Royal Palms with S FL, not even SoCal.  Where are there any in North FL?  I think you and I are saying the same thing, but I can't tell from the way you wrote your post.

Royal palms can be grown here. My neighbors have some, and I have a youngish tree that may be one as well. What I'm saying is that most palms that are actually native to South Florida can also be found in Northeast Florida, and that several of the species that are really only found in the south - and that people associate with the "Gold Coast" - are actually invasive.

I doubt we disagree, just being particular about Florida plant life. I have no idea what kind of palms those renderings are supposed to have. I really wouldn't worry about it at the stage before they've even said where the money is going to come from.

[jaxjaguar]

Someone should go back to 1898 and ask these people why there are palm trees downtown