Metro Jacksonville DEV
Jacksonville by Neighborhood => Downtown => Topic started by: Metro Jacksonville on October 24, 2011, 03:02:45 AM
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The Shipyards become new Green Space Downtown
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1541959257_5XsngKM-M.jpg)
Metro Jacksonville takes a walk around the Shipyards and suggests a passive natural use that would attract people and doesn't cost much to implement.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2011-oct-the-shipyards-become-new-green-space-downtown
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Great article Ennis. And the Promised 680' Downtown Public Pier can be opened immediately.
Just remember its dumb luck that we got this back. Not skill.
As for fishing you CAN fish Downtown and that was unveiled with the Aprill 22, 2005 Old Fuller Warren Bridge Study.
Right now Councilman Redman can introduce legislation to open the PIER. He posesses the power. Open one PIER. The Promised ONE.
Councilman Redman is fully aware of the current legislative power that he posesses. He will lose it with redistricting. FIND is identifying projects right now. FIND (Florida Inland Navigation District).
I have so much more information to share on this.
I so much want to promote our city, our community, our Downtown.
I want to say...
VISIT JACKSONVILLE!
not
DON'T VISIT JACKSONVILLE!
Keep the pier separate. Please. Somebody.....Make it Happen
I'm very concerned.
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River City Gracious Southern Front Porch
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Great article. This really makes you realize how gorgeous the site with the pier is. Great article.
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"Open immediately" .................only after making it safe and ADA friendly. There is surprisingly a lot of work to be done from the pictures you showed.
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"Open immediately" .................only after making it safe and ADA friendly.
Of course. That's as simple as putting in a short sidewalk (heck, it can be asphalt) to connect the riverwalk to the property. The city spent more than that to grade, sod and fence the property.
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I did a cost estimate based on info I was given as to the Northbank Riverwalk projects. The costs were a few years old, but it wouldn't take much to open the pier for public use.
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It would be nice if they filled the bulkhead with dirt, planted grass, and opened the entire thing up. I am assuming the bulkhead was meant to be filled with dirt for trees and plants.
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When they extend the Riverwalk, that part would be used to bury power and drainage lines and then filled over before the pavers go up. That's what I have been told anyway.
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Good article. Considering that the Riverwalk and the public river access were the parts that were going to be public when the development was happening, the city should prioritize opening them up immediately.
And it should just go ahead and complete them itself, so the amenities are already in place whenever the next phase moves forward, and there's no risk of being defrauded by the developer again.
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Great article. I'm getting fed up with all the political threads taking over the main page feed, so this was a nice breath of fresh air. Nice photos, too! The Maxwell House plant is actually looking quite nice.
I think the city would be wise to find funding to make the whole site an active park, filled with paths, public spaces, sculptures, interactive fountains, tables and benches, and of course the pier with that once proposed Calatrava landmark marker.
Then I would suggest the city find a way to connect to the stadium district and involve Maxwell House. I see no reason, even with the overpass dividing the two areas, for that district not to be filled with life. The West Coast, specifically Seattle, has found ways to incorporate their waterfront with the rest of town, even with a multiple deck freeway passing through.
We could have a waterfront market, an aquarium, docks for large yachts and sailboats and small cruise vessels, of course the public pier, the riverwalk, active park space as described above, etc etc. There is no reason why we should not pursue this.
In fact, if we can get the convention center to the current courthouse site and focus on this side of downtown, I would even go so far as to abandon plans for Lavilla for now because it does not have nearly as much going for it considering it was all bulldozed. The courthouse alone is not enough of an investment to bring that area back.
I also think many people in Jax would be more favorable to spending money on such plans on the river there near the stadiums and event spaces than in areas they deem "ghetto", unsafe, or unable to be utilized conveniently by the masses.
My new chant is Laura Street to Georgia Street, and Adams in between! (Granted I know the riverfront goes to Talleyrand, but Georgia kind rhymes with Laura)
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If they still cut off access to the river...what's the point? That's what I take away from this. But hey, baby steps...
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I always thought the Maxwell House should have some kind of coffee museum on ground level. I believe Heinz has one like this in Pittsburgh in the strip district.
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I always thought the Maxwell House should have some kind of coffee museum on ground level. I believe Heinz has one like this in Pittsburgh in the strip district.
Do they have anything for the public at all? I've thought about just walking in there & seeing what it was like or if they offered any tours.
I also wondered if they sold fresh roasted coffee to people in the local community? I don't think they do, or else I would have prob heard of it by now, but I don't know that for sure. Anyone know??
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Going by tonight, it looks like this "green space" is really "flex space" aka "Stadium parking". So, even if the City had money to improve this with more park-like amenities, I doubt they would.
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^Those amenities would have to come in the form of a completed riverwalk.
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So, this is our new $420,000 grass parking lot featured on the news tonight?
If the city plans to use this as a parking lot you can bet there won't be any amenities to interfere with cramming as many revenue generating vehicles as possible in this space. Even if it is only used to augment the other lots during really popular events and empty at all other times.
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City of Jacksonville Spent $420,000 on Grass for Parking Lot
JACKSONVILLE, Fla. -- A new parking lot that will see its first action for Florida-Georgia weekend cost taxpayers $420,000 to grade, install sod and irrigate.
The lot is along East Bay Street, across from the Maxwell House factory.
"You guys need to get it together here in Jacksonville and figure out what you're going to do with all our money because you're really wasting a lot of it," said Jacksonville taxpayer Patrick Rogers.
Meanwhile, Wyatt Bowers said it's money well spent.
"Downtown needs more recreation. It's great for picnics, great for fireworks. And long term it can be great for development," said Bowers.
City spokesperson Angela Spears wasn't available for an on-camera interview, but she emphasized this was approved by the previous administration and the money came from the Public Works Department.
Spears also said the trees were donated and that she doesn't think cars parking on the lot will ruin the grass.
http://www.firstcoastnews.com/topstories/article/223949/483/City-Spends-420000-on-Grass-for-Parking-Lot
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(http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/photos/images/newsfeed/000/001/582/picard-facepalm.jpg)
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This means that within the last few months the city has spent a million bucks on grass.
They won't have to mow the soccer field but where's the maintenance money coming from to care for the $420,000 lawn. The city can't even care for the weeds along the ROW now. Ask the Sheriff to lay off a few more to help out.
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City of Jacksonville Spent $420,000 on Grass for Parking Lot
JACKSONVILLE, Fla. -- A new parking lot that will see its first action for Florida-Georgia weekend cost taxpayers $420,000 to grade, install sod and irrigate.
The lot is along East Bay Street, across from the Maxwell House factory.
"You guys need to get it together here in Jacksonville and figure out what you're going to do with all our money because you're really wasting a lot of it," said Jacksonville taxpayer Patrick Rogers.
Meanwhile, Wyatt Bowers said it's money well spent.
"Downtown needs more recreation. It's great for picnics, great for fireworks. And long term it can be great for development," said Bowers.
City spokesperson Angela Spears wasn't available for an on-camera interview, but she emphasized this was approved by the previous administration and the money came from the Public Works Department.
Spears also said the trees were donated and that she doesn't think cars parking on the lot will ruin the grass.
http://www.firstcoastnews.com/topstories/article/223949/483/City-Spends-420000-on-Grass-for-Parking-Lot
quite interesting to see this...I think the best thing to do is open the space along the riverwalk and allow fishing...I believe that's what the one guy was saying
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good come back TUFSU1, i get so sick of the everything the city does is a waste of taxpayer dollars crowd!
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I did a cost estimate based on info I was given as to the Northbank Riverwalk projects. The costs were a few years old, but it wouldn't take much to open the pier for public use.
What number did you come up with?
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anyone know if they are ever going to tear down that berkman plaza 2 catastrophe?
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This means that within the last few months the city has spent a million bucks on grass.
They won't have to mow the soccer field but where's the maintenance money coming from to care for the $420,000 lawn. The city can't even care for the weeds along the ROW now. Ask the Sheriff to lay off a few more to help out.
Maybe there's a second boat parade to cancel while they're at it?
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Let's get the riverwalk connection done and then let's get a streetcar line from the sports complex to the Central Station of the Skyway Express. Huge economic driver for the city and businesses along the route.
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anyone know if they are ever going to tear down that berkman plaza 2 catastrophe?
I'm telling you the city should cast it in bronze and have it the first public sculpture dedicated to the great recession. Seriously I think about that all the time. The structure is probably deteriorated beyond repair at this point.
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I did a cost estimate based on info I was given as to the Northbank Riverwalk projects. The costs were a few years old, but it wouldn't take much to open the pier for public use.
What number did you come up with?
Less than a million. The variable is filling in the bulkhead and connecting the pier back to land. Do it as part of a Riverwalk extension, the costs are spread out over a much larger project. Do it independently and the costs are higher.
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That looks really nice. Now why can't they take every vacant piece of asphalt dump downtown and do that? Plant a couple trees. Downtown would be beautiful.
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City of Jacksonville Spent $420,000 on Grass for Parking Lot
JACKSONVILLE, Fla. -- A new parking lot that will see its first action for Florida-Georgia weekend cost taxpayers $420,000 to grade, install sod and irrigate.
The lot is along East Bay Street, across from the Maxwell House factory.
"You guys need to get it together here in Jacksonville and figure out what you're going to do with all our money because you're really wasting a lot of it," said Jacksonville taxpayer Patrick Rogers.
Meanwhile, Wyatt Bowers said it's money well spent.
"Downtown needs more recreation. It's great for picnics, great for fireworks. And long term it can be great for development," said Bowers.
City spokesperson Angela Spears wasn't available for an on-camera interview, but she emphasized this was approved by the previous administration and the money came from the Public Works Department.
Spears also said the trees were donated and that she doesn't think cars parking on the lot will ruin the grass.
http://www.firstcoastnews.com/topstories/article/223949/483/City-Spends-420000-on-Grass-for-Parking-Lot
Now that the new grass has been baptized with one games worth of parking....
$420,000 tax payer dollars and maybe a little hindsight??
I asked earlier - does the budget contain enough for maintenance for this sort of damage? Especially since there are plans to do it again.
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the $420,000 was spent on getting rid of the concrete, old pipes, etc. that were on the site...and, if it were up to me, this site wouldn't ever be used for parking
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They should turn it into a public garden like they are doing in many places in Springfield or more like Fenway Victory Gardens in Boston. I think it would be a perfect attraction to get people to come down frequently to the area and add unique touches other than just a planned tree/shrub/sidewalk type plot. Get people to take pride in their riverfront.
http://www.flickr.com/groups/fenwayvictorygardens/pool/
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^ Nice suggestion. I know the Jacksonville Zoo becoming the Jacksonville Zoo and Gardens has made that attraction much nicer.
I like the Missouri Botanical gardens that include a shrub maze and a good amount of statue art.
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I think he meant a food garden
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Well .... Should the taxpayers NOT have a say in what is done with this space? I mean it is our money they have spent to plant that grass.
I don't know what that much sod actually costs but $420,000.00 sounds really steep for sodding. ( I did read your post, TUFSU , and even with getting rid of debris, it sounds very expensive )
I think the Riverwalk needs to be connected to this space and since the money has been spent to make it a green space, for it to remain a Park and enhanced.
I also am not in favor of parking on it.
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Well .... Should the taxpayers NOT have a say in what is done with this space? I mean it is our money they have spent to plant that grass.
The taxpayer DOES have a say in what is done with this space. And that is why in 14 days at the next Jacksonville Waterways Commission meeting if the Historic Promised 680'Downtown Public Pier is not part of a FIND subcommittee recommendation that sought Public input in a process that is then advanced to a commission that is appointed by the Governor representing the Navigable Waterways of the east coast of the state of Florida then the entire process especially as it relates to Jacksonville needs to be immediately reviewed.
Downtown Vision - Where are you?
Mayor Brown- An immediate Downtown Destination. I hope you want it on the list. SHIPYARDS III
Just like that I'll be making another request for my work that was not shown in council chambers at city council and at Waterways for another fantastic canoe and kayak launch at the Waterfront Public Access street end of Chelsea St. and Stonewall on McCoys Creek.
Timkin....Imagine being asked to participate and submit a list of Historic structures that you felt were important and had potential for a high Public Benefit. PSN4 is not even on the list.
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Next year the County Courthouse will become vacant and the clerk, judges, and staff will move into the new building. The shipyards is pittance compared to what to do with the court house and its land/parking. Same thing then with old City Hall, as Corey and her people are moved to the old Federal Courthouse.
The Shipyards is like a flea on an elephant compare to what is coming down the road.
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The Shipyards is like a flea on an elephant compare to what is coming down the road.
Your right and we will be a staewide joke if the Historic Promised 680' Downtown Public Pier is not on the upcoming FIND list.
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The Shipyards is like a flea on an elephant compare to what is coming down the road.
Your right and we will be a staewide joke if the Historic Promised 680' Downtown Public Pier is not on the upcoming FIND list.
Flea infestation on Elephants in fact typically limited to tail,sores at the end of tail.Hair falls off.
*** More like a Gad Fly on an Elephant ***
*** Citizen Gad Fly(s) ***
Gad Flys lay their eggs on the skin of Elephants,where they become larvae.When mature,they bore out and fall to the rich,inviting soil of The Shipyards property,where they pupate to become adult Political Gad Flys.
The Elephants skin has many bumps the size of soy beans.The Elephant becomes irritated,which it shows by rubbing against trees,rocks and elongated concrete structures extending out in to deepening water bodies.Some of the bumps break open and become nasty sores as the larvae emerge..............
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The Shipyards is like a flea on an elephant compare to what is coming down the road.
Your right and we will be a staewide joke if the Historic Promised 680' Downtown Public Pier is not on the upcoming FIND list.
Is there a reason to think it will be? Is there a specific proposal on the table?
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YES!
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The Shipyards is like a flea on an elephant compare to what is coming down the road.
Your right and we will be a staewide joke if the Historic Promised 680' Downtown Public Pier is not on the upcoming FIND list.
Is there a reason to think it will be? Is there a specific proposal on the table?
Good question,and one broached to Noone.
Monitoring meetings is well and good and there have been numerous FIND events recently,but if inclined to post here,made most effective by actually noting meeting proceeding particulars,project status. As if a news reporter.
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The Shipyards is like a flea on an elephant compare to what is coming down the road.
This. Hate to say it but that pier is about as low on the downtown totem pole as you can get.
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I think the mayor would look to add an NBA team over a pier to downtown.
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I think the mayor would look to add an NBA team over a pier to downtown.
And he may Make It Happen.
And to get him started with Making it a Downtown Destination I'd bring one of those portable basketball hoops and set it up next to the Historic Promised 680' Downtown Public Pier and take him on in a game of Pig, or Horse. But being the sport I am I'll spot him some letters and the game of elimination will be spelled REORGINIZATION. I don't know why but I've got a gut feeling that the Mayor has some game in shooting some hoops. I still believe that I'll kick his butt. Regardless, the last time I spoke with Mayor Brown he remembered our previous conversation about kayaking and he is getting props in my book for that. Need to get in touch with David.
While this is happening think about Fred Kent and 10 other small organic clusters of activities that can also be occurring.
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Showed somebody the new kayak launch at the end of the new pier at Tideview Preserve in Atlantic Beach yesterday and then I called my councilman Don Redman and asked that the floating kayak dock launch be installed at the first 25 or 50' of the Historic Promised 680' Downtown Public Pier. This can be part of the yet to be approved and submitted FIND list.
Councilman Redman up until this point has done nothing. Spoke with Scott. He is going to check if legislation will be forthcoming that will then allow the full council to vote on this. This is an opportunity for checks and balances by our elected legislative representatives. Governor Scott and the Commissioners of FIND are aware of the pier.
Had a blast kayaking with Mayor Brown recently and so many other elected and appointed officials and an armada of other kayakers who I'm sure would agree that Downtown is a Destination to kayak, promote, celebrate, preserve, and access our St. Johns River our American Heritage River a Federal Initiative.
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Well .... Should the taxpayers NOT have a say in what is done with this space? I mean it is our money they have spent to plant that grass.
The taxpayer DOES have a say in what is done with this space. And that is why in 14 days at the next Jacksonville Waterways Commission meeting if the Historic Promised 680'Downtown Public Pier is not part of a FIND subcommittee recommendation that sought Public input in a process that is then advanced to a commission that is appointed by the Governor representing the Navigable Waterways of the east coast of the state of Florida then the entire process especially as it relates to Jacksonville needs to be immediately reviewed.
Downtown Vision - Where are you?
Mayor Brown- An immediate Downtown Destination. I hope you want it on the list. SHIPYARDS III
Just like that I'll be making another request for my work that was not shown in council chambers at city council and at Waterways for another fantastic canoe and kayak launch at the Waterfront Public Access street end of Chelsea St. and Stonewall on McCoys Creek.
Timkin....Imagine being asked to participate and submit a list of Historic structures that you felt were important and had potential for a high Public Benefit. PSN4 is not even on the list.
Was there today and everyone should be scared to death about the restriction of access. Met with some of the commissioners of FIND last week in St. Johns county. Huge announcements coming. Good for them.
FIND is good. Jacksonville is LOST.
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Wanted to bump this thread.
Legislative action can still occur by the city council to insure Public Access and Economic Opportunity to the Historic Promised 680' Downtown Public Pier before the complete structure and implementation of the the powerful and controlling DIA is approved by city council.
Will be sharing a Downtown Destination River activity today on our St. Johns River our American Heritage River a Federal Initaitive.
I am Downtown
With
Mayor Brown
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Wanted to bump this thread.
Legislative action can still occur by the city council to insure Public Access and Economic Opportunity to the Historic Promised 680' Downtown Public Pier before the complete structure and implementation of the the powerful and controlling DIA is approved by city council.
Will be sharing a Downtown Destination River activity today on our St. Johns River our American Heritage River a Federal Initaitive.
I am Downtown
With
Mayor Brown
I believe Downtown Brown was a character on Simon & Simon.
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Wanted to bump this thread.
Legislative action can still occur by the city council to insure Public Access and Economic Opportunity to the Historic Promised 680' Downtown Public Pier before the complete structure and implementation of the the powerful and controlling DIA is approved by city council.
Will be sharing a Downtown Destination River activity today on our St. Johns River our American Heritage River a Federal Initaitive.
I am Downtown
With
Mayor Brown
Just got back from making a scene Downtown. And we are watching the Jags coming back.
Caught some reds, catfish, croaker, and we are feasting on a nice drum as were watching the Jags coming back.
A floating dock/pocket pier next to the Historic Promised 680' Downtown Public Pier is a single that everyone on Metrojax should be saying "I'm All In with that."
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Per Jax Daily Record twitter in interview with Shad Khan this afternoon he has indicated a desire to have discussions with the city regarding his involvement in development of the Shipyards.
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I am interested to hear more regarding what that is all about
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Jacksonville Jaguars owner Shad Khan interested in Shipyards property
Thursday, June 13, 4:36 PM EDT
by Karen Brune Mathis, Managing Editor
Jacksonville Jaguars owner Shad Khan said Thursday he is interested in development of the riverfront Shipyards property, which is near EverBank Field and is the most visible open space along the St. Johns River on Downtown’s Northbank.
“I think it can be greatly enhanced” to bring economic vibrancy to Downtown, he said.
Khan said his organization is talking with the City, which owns the 40-acre Northbank Shipyards property. He did not specify the details of those talks.
Asked if he had ideas for the property, he said, “lots of ideas. Hundreds of ideas.”
Khan didn’t delve into details about the property or any plans, but said the site is “something we can really make a difference” in.
“That is the face,” he said, calling it a “very, very high-profile” property.
He declined to talk further about the talks with the City, saying the conversations are pending.
The Shipyards property is vacant land stretching from The Plaza at Berkman, near the old county courthouse property, to Metropolitan Park and the sports complex.
Several developers unsuccessfully attempted residential, office and retail projects on the site since it closed as a working shipyard.
Khan spoke with reporters Thursday after he accepted the 15th Annual Thompson S. Baker “Solid as a Rock” Award at the Junior Achievement of North Florida Hall of Fame event at EverBank Field.
Khan has made inroads into Downtown investment already. In April, his Stache Investments Corp. financed the acquisition by a private group of the Laura Street Trio and former Barnett Bank Building Downtown.
“I think for me, it’s really about committing to a community,” Khan said.
He said that deal was one of many investments and initiatives he supports in the community, including his pledge to meet with selected creators in the One Spark festival and possibly invest.
Khan said he supports growth in the community, including investments in local business, but prefers to do some of it quietly.
“There are many touch points to make a difference,” he said.
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Per Jax Daily Record twitter in interview with Shad Khan this afternoon he has indicated a desire to have discussions with the city regarding his involvement in development of the Shipyards.
the discussions have been occurring....and while cautiously optimistic, I'm not by any means sold yet....keep in mind that this is the same guy who wants the City to pay $50 million just so we can have scoreboards larger than the absurdly huge ones in Big D
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Hopefully, they will be willing to pay for the property...
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Not sure the only reason is to have bigger than those at Dallas. I think it could also be tied to increasing local revenues which is key to the Jags long term viability in Jax. But hey if you think otherwise for some agenda have at it. Of course tis is also the guy that financed the purchase of the Laura Trio. And the fact that said developers have yet to announce any plans shouldn't be held against Khan. Lets face it Khan is probably our only hope of a Dan Gilbert type person that has been instrumental in downtown Detroit.
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I would not be opposed to Shad Kahn opening up his pocketbook like Dan Gilbert has done for Detroit. Purchasing and taking property off the city's hands could generate revenue that could be invested elsewhere.
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I would not be opposed to Shad Kahn opening up his pocketbook like Dan Gilbert has done for Detroit. Purchasing and taking property off the city's hands could generate revenue that could be invested elsewhere.
Khan seems like a forward-thinking guy that "gets it," too. I don't imagine he is going to put something sucky and unsustainable in that space. I think he will want to make a splash. I imagine it will be a game-changer for downtown, whatever it is.
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I'm sure anyone developing something would at least attempt to make sure they have a financially viable project. I don't have an issue with that. I was referring to selling the property verses giving it away. In the past, we've tended to lay down on our backs, giving up the goodies, with little substance to show for it in return. I just hope that would not be the case with the Shipyards.
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I'm sure anyone developing something would at least attempt to make sure they have a financially viable project. I don't have an issue with that. I was referring to selling the property verses giving it away. In the past, we've tended to lay down on our backs, giving up the goodies, with little substance to show for it in return. I just hope that would not be the case with the Shipyards.
Ennis-
What do you think that property is really worth per acre?
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I'm sure anyone developing something would at least attempt to make sure they have a financially viable project. I don't have an issue with that. I was referring to selling the property verses giving it away. In the past, we've tended to lay down on our backs, giving up the goodies, with little substance to show for it in return. I just hope that would not be the case with the Shipyards.
Of course. I wasn't trying to infer otherwise. I'm just excited about the possibility of having a quality owner/businessman investing in downtown. I have an unhealthy trust in Shad Khan. I'm not sure he could fail if he tried...
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Hopefully, they will be willing to pay for the property...
Why pay for it? That property is more contaminated than the chairs at the SOS show lounge.
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Hmm... interesting. Any idea of what the property is worth and how much it would cost to clean contamination? With our luck, we'd give the property away and still be on the hook for the cleanup.
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How about a deal like Khan pays for the 50 million video boards to upgrade the stadium, a city asset that will also benefit him with increased revenues to the Jags. The city then gives him the shipyard property and agrees that they will also pay for any contamination clean up to where the value of land and contamination costs are no more than say 125% of what he invests in the stadium. City states that is it with regard to any type of incentives with regard to the development. Also stipulates a start date or the free Offer is off the table. He gets a decent deal. City gets prime waterfront property back on the tax roll and also most likely result in additional downtown development and tax revenue.
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Should clarify since I have no idea on value of the land. Perhaps value, clean up costs and incentives shouldn't exceed like 125% of the cost of video upgrades to stadium.
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Hmm... interesting. Any idea of what the property is worth and how much it would cost to clean contamination? With our luck, we'd give the property away and still be on the hook for the cleanup.
Does the city even have a Brownfields redevelopment person anymore? I know that the 2 people from COJ that went to last years Brownfields conference don't work for the city anymore. This is the exact project a person like that is needed for (though I'm sure Khan can hire a consultant). There are all kinds of creative ways to finance remediation as well as incentives that would make the project a lot more attractive for Khan and the city.
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How about a deal like Khan pays for the 50 million video boards to upgrade the stadium,
50 million could upgrade a huge chunk of Springfield, East Springfield, and Lavilla.
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"Does the city even have a Brownfields redevelopment person anymore? I know that the 2 people from COJ that went to last years Brownfields conference don't work for the city anymore."
My understanding is their salaries were too expensive under the Brown Administration so now we have hired at least one of the individuals back as an independent consultant at a greater expense ... Standard stuff
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^^The hired guy back- Vince Seibold?
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Hmm... interesting. Any idea of what the property is worth and how much it would cost to clean contamination? With our luck, we'd give the property away and still be on the hook for the cleanup.
The city owns the property as a creditor that foreclosed on a security interest and is likely exempt from environmental liability as long as it moves to quickly divest the property. The longer the city holds the property, the weaker its secured creditor exemption becomes.
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How about a deal like Khan pays for the 50 million video boards to upgrade the stadium, a city asset that will also benefit him with increased revenues to the Jags. The city then gives him the shipyard property and agrees that they will also pay for any contamination clean up to where the value of land and contamination costs are no more than say 125% of what he invests in the stadium.
I am fine with a deal like that....I'm just skeptical of giving the land to Khan for less than its true value AND spending $50 million on new video boards
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How about a deal like Khan pays for the 50 million video boards to upgrade the stadium, a city asset that will also benefit him with increased revenues to the Jags. The city then gives him the shipyard property and agrees that they will also pay for any contamination clean up to where the value of land and contamination costs are no more than say 125% of what he invests in the stadium.
I am fine with a deal like that....I'm just skeptical of giving the land to Khan for less than its true value AND spending $50 million on new video boards
The land has little value
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How about a deal like Khan pays for the 50 million video boards to upgrade the stadium, a city asset that will also benefit him with increased revenues to the Jags. The city then gives him the shipyard property and agrees that they will also pay for any contamination clean up to where the value of land and contamination costs are no more than say 125% of what he invests in the stadium.
I am fine with a deal like that....I'm just skeptical of giving the land to Khan for less than its true value AND spending $50 million on new video boards
The land has little value
You say this based on what information? Remember that there are tens of millions of tax dollars invested in that property that should be recouped if possible.
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How about a deal like Khan pays for the 50 million video boards to upgrade the stadium, a city asset that will also benefit him with increased revenues to the Jags. The city then gives him the shipyard property and agrees that they will also pay for any contamination clean up to where the value of land and contamination costs are no more than say 125% of what he invests in the stadium.
I am fine with a deal like that....I'm just skeptical of giving the land to Khan for less than its true value AND spending $50 million on new video boards
The land has little value
You say this based on what information? Remember that there are tens of millions of tax dollars invested in that property that should be recouped if possible.
Those dollars are not being recouped.
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I have to think that if the land had value, then we would see something on at least part of the site by now. The private market has simply not been willing to step to the table. This is clearly public land and should be - it would be in many waterfront cities such as SF or NYC.
I don't see why the port or some public entity wouldn't want to own it in partnership with the city/P&R, redevelop it as park space, and then allow for private entities to come in and build stuff on allotted portions under ground leases, a la Landing. Someone has to get creative here.
Between Jags games, the Arena, BBall park, concerts at Met Park, the Riverwalk, Hyatt Hotel and E. Bay St bars, etc, there is enough of a seed to create even more activity on this land. I would love to see lots of open greenspace (albeit done well with landscaped areas and interesting features), mixed with restaurants, would have been great if the city moved forward with Intuition Ale, etc etc. If you get enough foot traffic in the area consistently, maybe one day there could be an interest in a well capitalized private fund that can do something more spectacular with the site (and I'm not talking condos and high rise office - more public market/event/boutiquey office/hotel or low/mid-rise condos on a portion).
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How about a deal like Khan pays for the 50 million video boards to upgrade the stadium, a city asset that will also benefit him with increased revenues to the Jags. The city then gives him the shipyard property and agrees that they will also pay for any contamination clean up to where the value of land and contamination costs are no more than say 125% of what he invests in the stadium.
I am fine with a deal like that....I'm just skeptical of giving the land to Khan for less than its true value AND spending $50 million on new video boards
The land has little value
BS....it is a large tract of land on the waterfront...and a large portion of it has been remediated and has a brand new bulkhead
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What about the city doing the project as a joint venture with Khan? COJ can use its staff and resources to find credits/tax breaks for environmental remediation, can use city staff to remediate the property, can give the land to Khan for free, use its bonding power/credit rating for lending (not that Khan needs it), and give a property tax abatement of some sort. The city might be able to more accurately capture the value of the land by getting a share of the profits, instead of just giving it to Khan.
I suspect Khan (and most private developers) wouldn't be game for that...and I imagine he has a little bargaining power when it comes to the city for these types of deals. Not saying Khan does do these type of things or would...but the threat of London (or elsewhere) is a nice bargaining chip in his back pocket.
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How about a deal like Khan pays for the 50 million video boards to upgrade the stadium, a city asset that will also benefit him with increased revenues to the Jags. The city then gives him the shipyard property and agrees that they will also pay for any contamination clean up to where the value of land and contamination costs are no more than say 125% of what he invests in the stadium.
I am fine with a deal like that....I'm just skeptical of giving the land to Khan for less than its true value AND spending $50 million on new video boards
The land has little value
BS....it is a large tract of land on the waterfront
It has value, but not near what you probably think it is.
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What about the city doing the project as a joint venture with Khan? COJ can use its staff and resources to find credits/tax breaks for environmental remediation, can use city staff to remediate the property, can give the land to Khan for free, use its bonding power/credit rating for lending (not that Khan needs it), and give a property tax abatement of some sort. The city might be able to more accurately capture the value of the land by getting a share of the profits, instead of just giving it to Khan.
I suspect Khan (and most private developers) wouldn't be game for that...and I imagine he has a little bargaining power when it comes to the city for these types of deals. Not saying Khan does do these type of things or would...but the threat of London (or elsewhere) is a nice bargaining chip in his back pocket.
The City environmental staff is limited and has its hands full with ash remediation and multiple otehr waste sites.
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What about the city doing the project as a joint venture with Khan? COJ can use its staff and resources to find credits/tax breaks for environmental remediation, can use city staff to remediate the property, can give the land to Khan for free, use its bonding power/credit rating for lending (not that Khan needs it), and give a property tax abatement of some sort. The city might be able to more accurately capture the value of the land by getting a share of the profits, instead of just giving it to Khan.
I suspect Khan (and most private developers) wouldn't be game for that...and I imagine he has a little bargaining power when it comes to the city for these types of deals. Not saying Khan does do these type of things or would...but the threat of London (or elsewhere) is a nice bargaining chip in his back pocket.
The City environmental staff is limited and has its hands full with ash remediation and multiple otehr waste sites.
The tax credit/incentives/brownfields aspect is something for the Office of Economic Development and/or Planning Department to do. The physical clean up aspect would be down the road.
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The land has no value for the following reasons:
1) It's in Jacksonville
2) It's in downtown Jacksonville
3) The city doesn't appear to have worked through all the hurdles it needs to divest the land
4) People in the know are still talking about serious contamination
5) It's in Jacksonville
I think the city holds on, looks for a partner (maybe it's Khan, maybe it's another public entity or the port), and does what it needs to reposition the land for public use and for recapturing some of those expenses through sale to private entities or ground leases, etc (I don't think the land should be in complete control of private hands).
Value is this (3 latest land deals in DT SF):
Hines/BP paying $192M for 50,000 SF ($167M an acre or $3,840/sf)
TMG/Northwood paying $122M for 49,946 SF ($106M an acre or $2,443/sf)
Jay Paul paying $75M for 15,312 SF site ($214M an acre or $4,898/sf)
Miami Herald sold the land under its building for $236M (14 acres, $16.9M an acre or $387/sf)
In a very similar deal for a very similar piece of land in Oakland:
Ten years after going into escrow, the developers behind Brooklyn Basin, a 64-acre waterfront development in Oakland, closed on a deal Monday to buy the land for $18 million from the State Lands Commission and the Port of Oakland.
The developers agreed to the price in 2003 when the deal was first negotiated. At the time, the land was valued at $34 million with about $16 million needed for clean up and remediation.
http://www.bizjournals.com/sanfrancisco/blog/real-estate/2013/06/brooklyn-basin-site-sells-for-18.html
The developers have since secured $1.5B in financing from a Chinese investment entity for development of the site. I have already put up renderings, but given that this site is different from the Shipyards in that Oakland's real waterfront is Lake Merritt, which is public all the way around, and this site is merely a condo/public land deal in a formerly industrial and distressed area of Oakland, I don't think it's totally apples to apples. The Shipyards is one of the only potentially public waterfront land sites in all of NE FL and is downtown. It can't be a straight condo deal (nor would it - we're talking Jacksonville here).
(http://www.brooklynbasin.com/images/large/3.jpg)
http://www.brooklynbasin.com/
http://www.socketsite.com/archives/2013/04/oaklands_66acre_brooklyn_basin_development_finally_fund.html
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The land is worth $29 according to the last estimate I saw. There is still work that needs to be done, including cleaning up the contamination and completing the bulkhead. At the same time, though, the value will increase as property values go up. A lot of money was lost when TriLegacy defrauded the city, but the city also acquired the land in the settlement.
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^^^Is the land being marketed?
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^The city isn't looking to sell off the property wholesale now that they own it. That part of it is good, the city should be a partner in whatever happens and there should be public space on the property, at least including the piers and riverwalk. Unfortunately there isn't any plan at all right now.
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^The city isn't looking to sell off the property wholesale now that they own it. That part of it is good, the city should be a partner in whatever happens and there should be public space on the property, at least including the piers and riverwalk. Unfortunately there isn't any plan at all right now.
Absolutely not unless you want the city to be liable for the remediation. The City needs to sell it relatively quickly.
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What about the city doing the project as a joint venture with Khan? COJ can use its staff and resources to find credits/tax breaks for environmental remediation, can use city staff to remediate the property, can give the land to Khan for free, use its bonding power/credit rating for lending (not that Khan needs it), and give a property tax abatement of some sort. The city might be able to more accurately capture the value of the land by getting a share of the profits, instead of just giving it to Khan.
I suspect Khan (and most private developers) wouldn't be game for that...and I imagine he has a little bargaining power when it comes to the city for these types of deals. Not saying Khan does do these type of things or would...but the threat of London (or elsewhere) is a nice bargaining chip in his back pocket.
The City environmental staff is limited and has its hands full with ash remediation and multiple otehr waste sites.
The tax credit/incentives/brownfields aspect is something for the Office of Economic Development and/or Planning Department to do. The physical clean up aspect would be down the road.
The City never does physical cleanup. That is handled through outside consultants.
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The land has no value for the following reasons:
1) It's in Jacksonville
so if I understand you correctly, all property in Jacksonville is worth nothing?
If that's the case, why do people continue buying homes and land...and why do they get financing?
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What about the city doing the project as a joint venture with Khan? COJ can use its staff and resources to find credits/tax breaks for environmental remediation, can use city staff to remediate the property, can give the land to Khan for free, use its bonding power/credit rating for lending (not that Khan needs it), and give a property tax abatement of some sort. The city might be able to more accurately capture the value of the land by getting a share of the profits, instead of just giving it to Khan.
I suspect Khan (and most private developers) wouldn't be game for that...and I imagine he has a little bargaining power when it comes to the city for these types of deals. Not saying Khan does do these type of things or would...but the threat of London (or elsewhere) is a nice bargaining chip in his back pocket.
The City environmental staff is limited and has its hands full with ash remediation and multiple otehr waste sites.
The tax credit/incentives/brownfields aspect is something for the Office of Economic Development and/or Planning Department to do. The physical clean up aspect would be down the road.
The City never does physical cleanup. That is handled through outside consultants.
Correct...but the city has more capacity and experience to lead an environmental remediation than Khan would. So under the joint venture public/private partnership with Khan and the City, you let Khan do things that a private sector developer can do best and let COJ do things that a city with an extensive and diverse staff can do best. Although given the way things work with the COJ, you could probably make an argument that private sector consultants/contractors can do virtually everything better.
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I think the biggest obstacle is the alleged contamination of the site. Remediation costs can be very expensive and can have numerous unforseens that can create significant cost overruns in the cleanup. That is the biggest thing affecting the value of the property, if the numbers can't support cleanup costs along with the costs to acquire and develop the property, the city is going to be stuck holding it and as long the numbers don't support developing it, the property is pretty much worthless.
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^The city isn't looking to sell off the property wholesale now that they own it. That part of it is good, the city should be a partner in whatever happens and there should be public space on the property, at least including the piers and riverwalk. Unfortunately there isn't any plan at all right now.
Absolutely not unless you want the city to be liable for the remediation. The City needs to sell it relatively quickly.
Whatever happens, it should be an absolute requirement that there is public access, at least including the piers and Riverwalk. We don't need more inaccessible waterfront, especially downtown. The city already owns the land currently and has for three years.
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^The city isn't looking to sell off the property wholesale now that they own it. That part of it is good, the city should be a partner in whatever happens and there should be public space on the property, at least including the piers and riverwalk. Unfortunately there isn't any plan at all right now.
Absolutely not unless you want the city to be liable for the remediation. The City needs to sell it relatively quickly.
Whatever happens, it should be an absolute requirement that there is public access, at least including the piers and Riverwalk. We don't need more inaccessible waterfront, especially downtown. The city already owns the land currently and has for three years.
The city only owns it as a creditor who foreclosed on its security interest. I'd be fine with the city retaining ownership of certain portions as not all of the site is contaminated.
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^The city isn't looking to sell off the property wholesale now that they own it. That part of it is good, the city should be a partner in whatever happens and there should be public space on the property, at least including the piers and riverwalk. Unfortunately there isn't any plan at all right now.
Absolutely not unless you want the city to be liable for the remediation. The City needs to sell it relatively quickly.
To your point though, the land has no value. The land is development land only, right? So that implies one, two or all of three things:
1) New development (i.e. replacement cost) is attractive compared to buying existing inventory. We know this not to be the case.
2) There is demand for new development. We know this also not to be the case or we would have seen more activity a la 220 Riverside around DT (and we don't want rentals on this land if we're talking highest and best use). Obviously there is no demand for more hotel rooms or office space right now, and nobody is going to or able to do condos in the Jax market at this point (and I don't think that high rise condos are highest and best public use for such potentially publicly useful land, and low-mid-rise condos will have to be built and sold for a starting face rate higher than than market can come close to bearing and in a time frame that's not afforded such a small market with few comps).
3) There is a well-capitalized buyer pool with pockets to put this development land in. My exposure to the private equity side of real estate leads me to believe that nobody really has a fund (or pocket) to put this land in. The market's not right, the partner pool is equally limited and many groups can't or don't partner, the timing to buy is not right nor is the investment horizon right for 99% of funds out there, etc etc. Even opportunity funds nowadays are simply chasing value-add or development deals in core markets, maybe strong secondary markets.
Shipyards is simply a very large and risky land play in a very risky tertiary market. Almost nobody can do this deal. Nobody local can - that's already been proven twice (Jax has very few local developers of any sort of caliber, and the quality local guys are quite small, i.e. Hallmark).
So at most I would think the city can either sell the whole thing for dirt cheap to a small guy looking for a hold opportunity in the hopes that someday in the future there is a well capitalized group that can come in and take it down, or he can break it up and sell it (would be difficult if city wants the kind of control it should have over such a sight, and the city doesn't have the proper planning procedures in place to guide such piecemeal development).
But I think the city is basically looking at giving away the land to Khan or tiny portions next to Berkman to little guys looking to do little things (the Intuit Ale deal for instance).
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Perhaps a yacht basin for the Kismet....
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River City Gracious Southern Front Porch
Fast Forward; May 2016