Author Topic: Zimmerman Found Not Guilty  (Read 140134 times)

JeffreyS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6134
Re: Zimmerman Found Not Guilty
« Reply #165 on: July 15, 2013, 11:20:53 AM »
NN I think Zimmerman reporting on the 911 call that TM was running is evidence that supports fleeing.

Fsquid I don't want the Feds into every disappointing verdict or even this one I just do not see it opening up a bunch of problems.

thelakelander

  • Metro Jacksonville
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26542
Re: Zimmerman Found Not Guilty
« Reply #166 on: July 15, 2013, 11:21:38 AM »
Govt going after Zimmerman sets a dangerous precedent that will assuredly do more harm than good.

Agreed
Many thought the same with the Emmet Till case in 1955. You strive to get better, not maintain status quo. This is larger than GZ.

NotNow

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4234
Re: Zimmerman Found Not Guilty
« Reply #167 on: July 15, 2013, 11:32:09 AM »
Jeffrey,

I agree that Zimmerman's decision to continue his pursuit and/or search after he said that martin was "running" is an issue.  My point is that any "fleeing" law would not apply when a person stops "fleeing".  I wasn't in the courtroom, and I am not familiar with the testimony but it is my understanding that Zimmerman claimed he was suddenly attacked by Martin after Zimmerman had lost sight of him and had exited his truck.  It is also my understanding that there was no evidence to argue this testimony. 

Lake,

I wouldn't equate the Emmet Till case with this one.  I understand the racial sensitivity, and I understand the outrage at the loss of a seventeen year old boy in such circumstances.  But I would not equate Zimmerman's overzealous pursuit and the subsequent conflict between him and Martin with what happened to Till. 

"We may yet become the first nation to die from a terminal case of frivolity. Other great nations in history have been threatened by barbarians at the gates. We may be the first to be threatened by self-indulgent silliness inside the gates." - Thomas Sowell

sheclown

  • Guest
Re: Zimmerman Found Not Guilty
« Reply #168 on: July 15, 2013, 11:44:01 AM »
Whatever is wrong, needs to be fixed.  And needs to be fixed quickly.  We cannot live in a world where this is allowed to happen. 

The message sent is more than alarming



What was the message? 

Well.  Open season on young black men for one   Easy targets. No protection 

hyperbole

Gesundheit


& btw.

I have walked this earth for quite a while now.  I grew up near DC during the civil rights marches.  I have witnessed overt and covert racism in many forums and I gotta tell ya...   

...anyone who thinks this isn't anything but a state-sanctioned lynching is being naive.


duvalbill

  • Guest
Re: Zimmerman Found Not Guilty
« Reply #169 on: July 15, 2013, 11:50:33 AM »
Whatever is wrong, needs to be fixed.  And needs to be fixed quickly.  We cannot live in a world where this is allowed to happen. 

The message sent is more than alarming



What was the message? 

Well.  Open season on young black men for one   Easy targets. No protection 

hyperbole

Gesundheit


& btw.

I have walked this earth for quite a while now.  I grew up near DC during the civil rights marches.  I have witnessed overt and covert racism in many forums and I gotta tell ya...   

...anyone who thinks this isn't anything but a state-sanctioned lynching is being naive.



It's a little early to be drinking.

fsquid

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1757
Re: Zimmerman Found Not Guilty
« Reply #170 on: July 15, 2013, 11:54:41 AM »
It seems the evidence is there for manslaughter and certainly the kid's civil rights were violated.  As I've continued to state, I don't think this is over by a long shot.  Nevertheless, we can't raise TM from the dead but we can work to save other innocent people from similar fates.

What civil right was violated?
I'm no attorney but many are saying his right to live is one. I guess we'll see in upcoming months.

so anyone found not guilty of murder can then be charged on a civil rights law?

Best to let the courts play it out than to pointelessly argue the finer points of law here. 

Have you ever read the Civil Rights Act?  Or read up on Civil Rights Law?

Or were you asking genuinely?

I have, although on a very basic level.  I was simply responding to the statement that Trayvon's civil right to live was violated.   When put in those simple terms, you could bring up civil rights charges on any acquitted murderer if you wanted to.

fsquid

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1757
Re: Zimmerman Found Not Guilty
« Reply #171 on: July 15, 2013, 12:26:44 PM »
Whatever is wrong, needs to be fixed.  And needs to be fixed quickly.  We cannot live in a world where this is allowed to happen. 

The message sent is more than alarming



What was the message? 

Well.  Open season on young black men for one   Easy targets. No protection 

hyperbole

Gesundheit


& btw.

I have walked this earth for quite a while now.  I grew up near DC during the civil rights marches.  I have witnessed overt and covert racism in many forums and I gotta tell ya...   

...anyone who thinks this isn't anything but a state-sanctioned lynching is being naive.

that's great that you have experienced that.  Still doesn't change my opinion that this isn't going to mean that black kids are going to get gunned down at will in the streets starting next month anymore than they already are in some inner cities.

fsquid

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1757
Re: Zimmerman Found Not Guilty
« Reply #172 on: July 15, 2013, 12:27:23 PM »
It seems the evidence is there for manslaughter and certainly the kid's civil rights were violated.  As I've continued to state, I don't think this is over by a long shot.  Nevertheless, we can't raise TM from the dead but we can work to save other innocent people from similar fates.

What civil right was violated?
I'm no attorney but many are saying his right to live is one. I guess we'll see in upcoming months.

so anyone found not guilty of murder can then be charged on a civil rights law?

Best to let the courts play it out than to pointelessly argue the finer points of law here. 

Have you ever read the Civil Rights Act?  Or read up on Civil Rights Law?

Or were you asking genuinely?

I have, although on a very basic level.  I was simply responding to the statement that Trayvon's civil right to live was violated.   When put in those simple terms, you could bring up civil rights charges on any acquitted murderer if you wanted to.

or unacquitted murder.  Lets not over burden the simplification with so much hot air. ;)

well if you are found guilty of murder, I believe the feds just let the state sentence be.

BridgeTroll

  • Guest
Re: Zimmerman Found Not Guilty
« Reply #173 on: July 15, 2013, 12:48:59 PM »
Quote
...anyone who thinks this isn't anything but a state-sanctioned lynching is being naive covertly racist.

Wow... Pretty broad statement there... ::)

duvalbill

  • Guest
Re: Zimmerman Found Not Guilty
« Reply #174 on: July 15, 2013, 12:49:14 PM »
Whatever is wrong, needs to be fixed.  And needs to be fixed quickly.  We cannot live in a world where this is allowed to happen. 

The message sent is more than alarming



What was the message? 

Well.  Open season on young black men for one   Easy targets. No protection 

hyperbole

Gesundheit


& btw.

I have walked this earth for quite a while now.  I grew up near DC during the civil rights marches.  I have witnessed overt and covert racism in many forums and I gotta tell ya...   

...anyone who thinks this isn't anything but a state-sanctioned lynching is being naive covertly racist.

There are not enough facepalms in the world if that's what you believe.

Gators312

  • Guest
Re: Zimmerman Found Not Guilty
« Reply #175 on: July 15, 2013, 01:03:19 PM »
Quote
...anyone who thinks this isn't anything but a state-sanctioned lynching is being naive covertly racist.

Wow... Pretty broad statement there... ::)

I often wonder if Stephen merely posts these type of flamebait statements to drive clicks for the site. 

Cheshire Cat

  • Guest
Re: Zimmerman Found Not Guilty
« Reply #176 on: July 15, 2013, 01:05:41 PM »
The thread began with the statement "Zimmerman Found Not Guilty".  I think it is safe to say that him being found not guilty refers to his "trial".  However on this thread posters have moved to a number of topics that in my view go to the underlying emotions the trial brought out and not the trial itself.  I want to say again that if we are going to address those issues, it should be one at a time without making this a personal contest of who is right and who is wrong but rather what are the issues in "everyone's" view that made this trial so "powerful" and what are the emotions behind all of the public outpouring?  Look, if we are not going to allow others their views, even if we don't agree with those views then we are turning our eyes and ears away from causes, real or imagined.  I use the word imagined, because the reality each of us feel regarding this case are based on what we imagine happened and what we imagine the causes were.

Was this a state sanctioned lynching?  No, it wasn't and I have heard that sentiment more than once.  While it's a feeling one can definitely associate with the killing a a black youth, the reality in this case is that Zimmerman's actions were called out, he was charged "by the state" and prosecuted "by the state".  Was this a travesty of justice under the law "no".  Cause here is the fact of the matter.  It was the law "as written" that the attorneys, judge and the jurors had to abide by.

There was a grand jury seated whose purpose was to review the killing of Trayvon and decide if there was enough evidence to charge Zimmerman and with what crime.  When it was apparent that the case was one that had caught the eye and passions of the public, Angela Corey stepped in and put herself at the front of this case.  The grand jury was dismissed and a special prosecutor took this into their own hands, to trial with a murder 2 charge which under the law must be proved beyond a reasonable doubt.  Corey and her prosecutors who are in fact "the state" in this situation were responsible for prosecuting Zimmerman and getting justice for Trayvon.  Since the state prosecuted for Trayvon there is not way I can see that the state sanctioned Trayvon's death.  It didn't, but the man who caused his death was found "not guilty" because of the way our laws in Florida are written and that's the God's honest truth.

My view on what happened with the case itself (I am only talking trial here), is perhaps a bit different than what others have focused on so far. First questions, why did Corey jump into this case?   Remember Corey, who is known for overcharging in cases, particularly those with minorities in the hot seat, now want's to step up as she said over and over again, while standing before cameras next to the Martin's was only "to get justice for Trayvon".  Sure painted herself as a scion for justice at that moment.  But what is her record really?  Remember Christian Hernandez?  He was the 10 year old child, (child not teenager) that Corey in her quest for justice charged as an adult.  The 10 year old who violently pushed his brother into a bookcase and the little brother died because the injured child's own mother did not get medical help for him until hours later.  As it turns out several high powered attorneys challenged Corey's actions and the child was tried as a juvenile and is now safe and receiving treatment.

Corey has taken some serious hits overtime when it comes to Black prosecution and minority prosecution.   I think she saw the Trayvon case as a way to thrust herself into the spotlight as the avenging angel for the Martin family and in so doing to rehabilitate herself in the eyes of public opinion.  I thought this to begin with but felt it even more strongly when she instructed her office to withhold evidence from the defense in this case.  Sanctions against her are now pending for this reason.  When the Zimmerman verdict was announced as "not guilty", Corey rushed before television camera's, not to the Martin's in support and then played the role of the "good loser" thanking local authorities for their treatment of her and her team while wearing this odd and phoney smile.  She said while she didn't like the outcome, she respects the law and the jury's verdict.  She also stated the case was "Never about race".  Really?  Is this what she thought?  I seriously doubt it.

Zimmerman was not convicted because Corey charged him with a crime she and her team could not prove.  The prosecution put on a lousy case to support a murder two charge.  They didn't prep witnesses, civil or otherwise all they did was call Zimmerman a liar or cop wanna be and during closing arguments actually claimed he made a statement about killing Trayvon that was  proved to be a lie as the incident was recorded.  The prosecution blew it and the way our laws are written set up the state for a "not guilty".  Is that racist?  No it's not, the jury acted according to the law they were instructed to use and anyone who watched the trial knows that there were many, many circumstances raised in the case that screamed "reasonable doubt".  Which means if the jury had any doubt that was reasonable, they could not convict on the murder 2 charge.  The addition of the manslaughter charge as a "fall back" charge that was not defended in the court failed.  Had the case been argued under that charge we may have seen a different outcome.

The questions the case raised touch upon deeply felt hurts in the Black community that are justified and backed by more than a few historical events.  We cannot undo those events, but we should avoid infusing this case with facts from the past.  In order to discuss the injustice in the deaths of everyone who has died because of racism, we need to listen, stay calm, not make it about ourselves but rather about everyone.  Zimmerman was one guy who for many became everyone that had ever made a racist statement in the past, but he does not speak for an entire race and an entire race is not prejudiced.  My goodness, this insistence on calling him "white" as a basis to prove his thoughts and actions were racist is in and of itself the backside of racism, it is a racist view.  The underlying question is why human beings, not just here but globally judge one another by the color of their skin as opposed to the content of their character?  If we are going to discuss such an important issue can we please do it without the need to attack those with different opinions or life experiences?  We need to first listen with compassion to all that is said, not lash out, because when we do that we only fall into the habits of the past which have allowed the deep problems of racism to fester and grow.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2013, 01:21:42 PM by Cheshire Cat »

carpnter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 698
Re: Zimmerman Found Not Guilty
« Reply #177 on: July 15, 2013, 01:15:46 PM »
Whatever is wrong, needs to be fixed.  And needs to be fixed quickly.  We cannot live in a world where this is allowed to happen. 

The message sent is more than alarming



What was the message? 

Well.  Open season on young black men for one   Easy targets. No protection 

hyperbole

Gesundheit


& btw.

I have walked this earth for quite a while now.  I grew up near DC during the civil rights marches.  I have witnessed overt and covert racism in many forums and I gotta tell ya...   

...anyone who thinks this isn't anything but a state-sanctioned lynching is being naive.

That is a complete load of crap. 

The evidence did not support convicting Zimmerman.  Is it a tragedy? Yes.  There are two people who know what happened that night, and one of them is dead.  The prosecution presented their case and it was not enough to convince a jury that he was guilty.  Could he have been guilty of what they claimed?  Yes, but the burden of proof is on the prosecution and they must convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt and the bar is purposely set that high by our laws to help prevent innocent people of being convicted of crimes they did not commit.
William Blackstone, a British jurist and judge who influenced a number of our founding fathers, said that it is better that ten guilty men go free than one innocent man be punished. 

carpnter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 698
Re: Zimmerman Found Not Guilty
« Reply #178 on: July 15, 2013, 01:30:49 PM »

That is a complete load of crap. 

The evidence did not support convicting Zimmerman.

Is that your legal opinion Carpenter?  What part of the testimony that you listened to and saw, you know during the court proceedings that makes you say that?

Looking for specifics here.

The jury made that decision, the state did not convince them beyond a reasonable doubt that he was guilty of 2nd degree murder or manslaughter.  Their opinion is the only one that matters.  What you or I think really isn't relevant, but since you asked.

I didn't watch the trial, but I did read the daily news articles and read CNN's Headline News daily blog of the trial, and from what I read, there wasn't enough to get beyond reasonable doubt. 
I like many other people thought he was guilty and should have already been arrested when the story first came out, but as more information came out my opinion changed.  I can't say Zimmerman is innocent, but I can say that the evidence isn't there to convict him beyond that reasonable doubt.

Cheshire Cat

  • Guest
Re: Zimmerman Found Not Guilty
« Reply #179 on: July 15, 2013, 01:31:00 PM »
Stephen, the jurors listened to five long weeks of testimony from both sides.  They received directions from the court as to what guilty beyond a reasonable doubt meant.  The testimony of many individuals as well as expert witnesses confirmed doubt at many levels.  Let's just take one statement by Angela Corey herself on behalf of her prosecution made after the verdict.  She was asked why she went for a murder 2 conviction.  Her answer I found to be stunning.  Her reasoning was that they had listened to the 911 tape of the screams during the altercation between Zimmerman and Trayvon.  They were "sure" the once screaming was Trayvon and backed that up with the statement that the screaming stopped after the shot was fired.  As it turns out the preponderance of witnesses said it was Zimmerman screaming but the hard facts are that police forensics and the forensics of the FBI said there was no way to know for sure if it was Zimmerman or Trayvon screaming.  Nada, they testified to this in court.  Right there you have reasonable doubt through the testimony of experts from the FBI.  There were other things as well testified to by experts where serious doubt was raised regarding the actual shooting of Trayvon, which spoke to him being on top during the altercation and the direction in which he was shot and all that it indicated.  The entire trial was filled with areas of testimony and conflicting evidence that raised doubt.  The jury decided not guilty which means after all those weeks of testimony and backroom discussions they had doubts.  I watched most of the trial and I would have to agree with the jury's response based on how the law was written and the criterion for reasonable doubt.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2013, 01:39:31 PM by Cheshire Cat »