Zimmerman Found Not Guilty

[Cheshire Cat]

This. A thousand times. I was gonna post this on the other thread, but its a lost cause & turned into a zoo quite frankly.

I think we're all guilty of letting the media circus take hold of us, try to divide & distract us with race baiting. That same media who loves LOVES a juicy story & spins it every way from Sunday. To the point where we're now all arguing about it, losing friends because of it, painting these broad assumptions of people because of their opinion, etc. Its disgusting really, but its the world we live in. The 6 giant corporations that now owns over 90% of all the media that we have access to tells us to jump & before thinking, we jump. And its getting worse, but still people don't seem to recognize it because the topics they choose to pound into our heads are so tempting to get bent out of shape over.

Stop & think for a moment, please. And look at things from a broader perspective. I read something like 25 black youths/young adults have been killed in Chicago so far in the month of July ALONE. Not to mention a bunch of injuries to women, children, etc. Now, where the hell is the outrage there? Where are the protests?? Where is the media??? Hmm, I'm looking around & all anyone is talking about is this one isolated instance. I guess they don't matter since its not a juicy enough story then. And people apparently certainly wont seek this information out, or even want to know about it, because, again, we like to be told what to be outraged about & can only take it in the prescribed concentrated bursts. That way we can all get up on our soap boxes & push whatever agendas or hangups we ourselves might have, forget about it when the next cycle hits, while never acknowledging the real ugliness.

It's fucking sick & that's all I'm saying about it.

Good, solid points and I am in agreement with you.  The only answer I can determine is that it isn't just July, it has been happening that way in Chicago and I guess if it was happening in Jax the same way for the same time period we would just take it as fact too.  Everytime First Coast news posts on their Facebook that JSO is responding to the Northside or Westside, details to follow, you get the rigmarole of comments of people saying must be another shooting. So in a way, maybe we do have the same mentality or have become numb to it. Or maybe we ignore it because it wasn't on my street.  As for black on black crime, it happens but one observation I do have is that in a predominately African American community, they are much more close-knitted than say a 90% white neighborhood.  I think some of the issue is that they don't like it to happen, but the fear of having outsiders to come in and try to 'fix' the situation is even worse to them.

I know this is a very important issue to many in the Black community and as I mentioned on another thread MADDADS, as well as other organizations, pastors and religious groups have taken this issue on.  I don't think this is a thing that can be fixed but rather is going to turn from inside the community.  How that may happen I don't know but I do know folks are very tired of the crime.

[thelakelander]

A proper discussion on black-on-black crime can't take place without putting it within its proper content.  For example, it's not all peaches and cream across the tracks. Crime in general is based on environment, not race. This article Stephendare posted in the Zimmerman thread seems ideal for this discussion.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/07/15/the-trayvon-martin-killing-and-the-myth-of-black-on-black-crime.html?utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&utm_campaign=cheatsheet_afternoon&cid=newsletter%3Bemail%3Bcheatsheet_afternoon&utm_term=Cheat%20Sheet

Trayvon Martin and the Myth of "Black on Black Crime"

As for the Chicago killings, there is outrage.  However, the major difference between the GZ/TM situation and those is when the killers are identified, they end up being put away behind bars.

[Cheshire Cat]

  Believe me I thought twice before wading into any of the Trayvon discussions but it is my deep feeling that we need to walk into some of these discussions in order to bring some sort of understanding as to why race and discussion of race remains such a volatile subject and much of that I believe is the fanning of passions as opposed to clarity of thinking and honest discussion.  As long as people simply take the lead of the angry or political in cases like this the core importance of an issue is lost in blame, angry words and passion.

And for that Diane, thank you.  Even though not everyone comments, a lot of us follow the board and both respect and admire your ability to act as voice of calm and reason when emotions get a little too involved.

Wow Jaybird, thank you.  I just feel in my heart that real conversation can change things and that everyone has the right to their views but they are so much more useful when shared without vitriol.  It really isn't that hard to be respectful.

[Cheshire Cat]

A proper discussion on black-on-black crime can't take place without putting it within it's proper content.  For example, it's not all peaches and cream across the tracks. Crime in general is based on environment, not race. This article Stephendare posted in the Zimmerman thread seems ideal for this discussion.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/07/15/the-trayvon-martin-killing-and-the-myth-of-black-on-black-crime.html?utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&utm_campaign=cheatsheet_afternoon&cid=newsletter%3Bemail%3Bcheatsheet_afternoon&utm_term=Cheat%20Sheet

Trayvon Martin and the Myth of "Black on Black Crime"

As for the Chicago killings, there is outrage.  However, the major difference between the GZ/TM situation and those is when the killers are identified, they end up being put away behind bars.

Thanks for reposting the article Ennis.  It is a good one for this discussion to be sure.  So far no one has touched your query on the Zimmerman thread about how environment impacts this type of crime.  Are you willing to lead us down that path of discussion.  I would be very interested in you take on the issue from all sides. 

[Cheshire Cat]

Caught this too late.  Anderson Cooper just had an exclusive with one of the jurors on the Zimmerman case. This is on CNN and the broadcast continues right now. 

[JayBird]

A proper discussion on black-on-black crime can't take place without putting it within its proper content.  For example, it's not all peaches and cream across the tracks. Crime in general is based on environment, not race. This article Stephendare posted in the Zimmerman thread seems ideal for this discussion.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/07/15/the-trayvon-martin-killing-and-the-myth-of-black-on-black-crime.html?utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&utm_campaign=cheatsheet_afternoon&cid=newsletter%3Bemail%3Bcheatsheet_afternoon&utm_term=Cheat%20Sheet

Trayvon Martin and the Myth of "Black on Black Crime"

As for the Chicago killings, there is outrage.  However, the major difference between the GZ/TM situation and those is when the killers are identified, they end up being put away behind bars.

Thanks, I missed this in the other board but that's growing at a new page every hour it seems.  Let me grab dinner and I hope Ennis that you jump into this.  From a quick scan, I will say I have used statistics like that before in discussions with prisoners in Lake Butler CI and I will never forget what one told me. He said "I grew up in 29th & Chase in Jacksonville and I was more afraid of my neighbor than some (slang word for white guy) with gun in his pocket.  Those numbers don't mean (slang) when it's 100 brothers getting cut down and only 5 (slang for white men)." Now, to keep in context he was imprisoned for the murder of his neighbor, and he held within him a lot of hate.

[thelakelander]

^I'm just getting back in to town.  That Zimmerman thread has gotten so large during my commute back, that I'm going to have to search and dig out my post about about economics and environment.  This issue of black-on-black crime isn't about race.  Stats tend to be pretty skewed when they are cherry picked. Anyway, the underlying issue deals with economics and environment.  Change those, you change the results and it doesn't matter what the population's skin pigmentation happens to be.

[Cheshire Cat]

The two takeaway statements I got from her was first that they "never" discussed race.  Second that when they first went back there were three for not guilty, one for murder 2 and two for manslaughter.  She said that as they read and re-read the law there was no way to find Zimmerman guilty of either charge.  She went on to say that a couple of jurors wanted to find him guilty of something because Trayvon had died, but the law didn't support either charge. 

She said all the jurors wept after they had come to the verdict and given it to the bailiff and that none of them ever want to serve on another jury.   She also said that they were totally surprised by how big the public interest had become in the trial and that race had been brought into the picture.  She said none of the jurors even thought about race as a factor. She also wanted the public to know that they combed through all the evidence again and listened over and over to the testimony and did their very best to render a verdict according to law. 

[thelakelander]

The two takeaway statements I got from her was first that they "never" discussed race.  Second that when they first went back there were three for not guilty, one for murder 2 and two for manslaughter.  She said that as they read and re-read the law there was no way to find Zimmerman guilty of either charge.  She went on to say that a couple of jurors wanted to find him guilty of something because Trayvon had died, but the law didn't support either charge. 

She said all the jurors wept after they had come to the verdict and given it to the bailiff and that none of them ever want to serve on another jury.   She also said that they were totally surprised by how big the public interest had become in the trial and that race had been brought into the picture.  She said none of the jurors even thought about race as a factor. She also wanted the public to know that they combed through all the evidence again and listened over and over to the testimony and did their very best to render a verdict according to law. 

Totally understandable.  I think he's guilty of manslaughter but I'm also sure he did fear for his life when TM started getting the best of him.  After all, from his perspective, TM was a thug on the prowl.  If I find anything wrong, it's the idea that one can provoke an incident, shoot the victim when the victim gets the best of him and walk away free on a claim of self defense. 

IMO, there's no telling what can of worms we are opening here.  If what I've described is true (which it appears to be), then I believe we need to work on modifying law to not allow such a chain of events to happen and the instigator get away with it.

[JayBird]

The two takeaway statements I got from her was first that they "never" discussed race.  Second that when they first went back there were three for not guilty, one for murder 2 and two for manslaughter.  She said that as they read and re-read the law there was no way to find Zimmerman guilty of either charge.  She went on to say that a couple of jurors wanted to find him guilty of something because Trayvon had died, but the law didn't support either charge. 

She said all the jurors wept after they had come to the verdict and given it to the bailiff and that none of them ever want to serve on another jury.   She also said that they were totally surprised by how big the public interest had become in the trial and that race had been brought into the picture.  She said none of the jurors even thought about race as a factor. She also wanted the public to know that they combed through all the evidence again and listened over and over to the testimony and did their very best to render a verdict according to law. 

Totally understandable.  I think he's guilty of manslaughter but I don't doubt that he didn't fear for his life with TM started getting the best of him.  If I find anything wrong, it's the idea that one can provoke an incident, shoot the victim when the victim gets the best of him and walk away free on a claim of self defense. 

IMO, there's no telling what can of worms we are opening here.  If what I've described is true (which it appears to be), then I believe we need to work on modifying law to not allow such a chain of events to happen and the instigator get away with it.

Clearly stated, bottom line.

[ChriswUfGator]

ALL evidence.  Anything found on the phone has to be shared.  "Pertinent to the case" will be decided by the judge.  Ask your friend Chris.

Im sure he will weigh in shortly

Stephen you know I love ya bud, but NotNow's right on this one. It's anything in the possession of the state with few very limited exceptions, and possession's imputed to not only SAO and their investigators, but also law enforcement and any agency of the executive branch. The photos should have been turned over, no question. Whether they were admissible at trial would depend on who wins the ruling on the motion in limine or wins the objection when somebody attempts to introduce them, and in this particular case the state actually succeeded in keeping most of it out. But no question at all that they should have been given to the defense. Failing to do so was just one of several serious ethical lapses that SAO4 appeared to use as a crutch in the absence of a viable strategy, commencing with the filing of the affidavit in support of the warrant and getting worse from there.

Also FWIW: http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/2013-07-15/story/state-attorney-corey-scrutinized-nationally-over-handling-trayvon

[AngryMuffin]

Blah blah blah.  So much talking about nothing.  Everyone knows black people kill a lot of other black people.  Everyone (who is living in the real world) knows that young black males commit a lot more crime per capita than any other race.  Great. So you've spent two pages talking about stuff everyone already knows.  Known facts.

-- Why does this demographic commit so much violent crime?

-- What can the rest of society do to slow it down?

[thelakelander]

He's being paid a lot of money to argue a point a certain way.  I'm sure if he was paid by the other side, he'd argue in the opposite direction.

[Cheshire Cat]

Blah blah blah.  So much talking about nothing.  Everyone knows black people kill a lot of other black people.  Everyone (who is living in the real world) knows that young black males commit a lot more crime per capita than any other race.  Great. So you've spent two pages talking about stuff everyone already knows.  Known facts.

-- Why does this demographic commit so much violent crime?

-- What can the rest of society do to slow it down?

I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, but this last post tells me you are intent upon making your own point about Blacks and crime that is not born of concern but rather accusative.  I don't think there is a place in this conversation where that attitude toward this discussion has value.  Perhaps you should reconsider your approach if you expect anyone to entertain your views and ideas. 

[thelakelander]

Blah blah blah.  So much talking about nothing.  Everyone knows black people kill a lot of other black people.  Everyone (who is living in the real world) knows that young black males commit a lot more crime per capita than any other race.  Great. So you've spent two pages talking about stuff everyone already knows.  Known facts.

-- Why does this demographic commit so much violent crime?

-- What can the rest of society do to slow it down?

AngryMuffin, I've already answered both of those questions.  You ignored both in that long Zimmerman thread to go back and forth trading pot shots with Stephendare instead.