Khan's Jacksonville Shipyards Plans Revealed

[Keith-N-Jax]

Well said!!!!!

[thelakelander]

^ Perfect response MM, and incredibly true.

Ennis, on the Landing, to me we're talking apples and oranges here. The Landing as it exists isn't perfect, but it has its use as a semi-iconic civic gathering space. Sleiman requested $12.8 million to basically neuter the space and turn it into a suburban apartment complex. Retail was limited, the courtyard that has become one of the primary gathering spots in the city was removed, and the thin strip of public space was separated from the "Landing" by a road. I don't get the impression that the public outcry was over the specific dollar contribution, but rather to the terrible design presented by Sleiman, coupled with his "taking my ball and going home" attitude when the city council suggested that public input was needed. If Sleiman's proposal would have been stronger and presented a new Landing that truly benefit the city, I think we would have seen a more favorable reaction.

Conversely, I think many, many, many (three manys!) people see Khan's proposed Shipyards development as a genuine way to increase quality of life in Jacksonville and kickstart a broader redevelopment of downtown at large. I think the average informed Jacksonville citizen realizes that no developer is going to clean up our mess for us, and that even if we have to open up the checkbook for remediation, riverwalk extension, and mooring of the USS Adams, these are all necessary improvements we'll eventually be on the hook for anyway.

In Sleiman's case, the public money was to be used for the Landing's demolition, newly created waterfront public space and site infrastructure. I believe Sleiman was going to develop the mixed use buildings himself.

In Khan's case, he'd be a master developer, meaning they'd be attempting to get the Sleimans of the world to construct their individual projects on smaller parcels of the site. By the same token, the hotel in the Landing plan would be developed in a similar fashion. In both cases, the request is for public money to be spent to prepare these sites for their private developments....although Khan is asking for city property and Sleiman is not.

I think the major difference is Khan came in with a flashy "unrealistic" plan that wowed the socks off of many and Sleiman (who is already looked down on by many downtown advocates) presented something reflective of Jax's true market.

If I'm Sleiman, I'd probably keep the same development mix and just lay these uses out differently on the Landing site and throw a microsoft paint hot air balloon in the background for shits and giggles.

Before anyone jumps on me, I'm not attempting to rain on either developer's parade and I hope that both endeavors will ultimately be successful. It's just interesting to see two requests for public money to be uses to make sites development ready be taken in two totally different directions by most downtown advocates.

[edjax]

Can someone explain the big difference in Sleiman's request for $12.8 million and Khan's request for the Shipyards? It's interesting to see the difference in public reaction.

I think some is just who it is. Toney Sleiman is a hate him or like him guy.  Also I would think from the standpoint on this site he promotes sprawl with his continual building of cheap strip malls further and further out and was one of the major people behind the gutting of the Mobility Fees. So I think there is a few things which will trigger anything he suggests with doubt and negativity.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

I think the major difference is Khan came in with a flashy "unrealistic" plan that wowed the socks off of many and Sleiman (who already looked down on by many downtown advocates) presented something reflective of Jax's true market.

To your point, Lake, my opinion was a few days ago:

It's not a perfect world; and people don't really get excited over 3-story "Jacksonville Beige" stucco covered buildings (are you listening Toney Sleiman?).  So we start with his dream, and then we tweak it here and there, and I imagine that we'll end up with something completely different.  But definitely something.  And based on his track-record since being here, I think we'll see something sooner rather than later - 1-2 years from now moving dirt for the practice fields at a minimum. 

There is a phrase that keeps popping up that I'd like to address, though:  "This doesn't/isn't feel/seem/appear Jacksonville."

Good.  Khan isn't Jacksonville, and I hope he brings in more influence that ISN'T Jacksonville.  Our status quo is boring, un-inventive and quite frankly a detriment to our city.  I'm looking forward to more presentations along this ilk.

What do we stand to gain by continuing the "Jacksonville Way"?  Another stucco building and a parking lot?

[vicupstate]

Previously everyone said Khan had so much money and he was investing lots of it in this project. In reality he is not investing anything at all except his time and reputation.  He is taking no monetary risk. He is requiring the city to invest lots of money into property that is immediately adjacent to his team's stadium.  Even if not one building goes up on the site, he gains simply by having this property become 'develop-able' even if he is not involved.

Right out of the gate, before discussing any other parts of the contract, Khan needs to make guarantees that improvements by the city will be followed with private investment of a specified amount, within a short and specified period of time. Absent of that additional investment, would require payback from Khan of at least part of the public improvements.  He needs skin in the game, he currently has none. 

     

[ProjectMaximus]

Right out of the gate, before discussing any other parts of the contract, Khan needs to make guarantees that improvements by the city will be followed with private investment of a specified amount, within a short and specified period of time. Absent of that additional investment, would require payback from Khan of at least part of the public improvements.  He needs skin in the game, he currently has none. 

This sounds very reasonable. I would expect to do this if I were him.

[jaxnyc79]

Precisely, he needs skin in the game. 

If he wants to be made "chief promoter of shipyards redevelopment," then that's all well and good, but we need clearly-defined redevelopment goals and timelines, or title to the property should revert back to the city.  Other than being a very rich football team owner, I'm not sure what Khan has "paid in" to indefinitely own a cleaned-up shipyards property.

I'm sure the city knows to do this as part of due diligence, but need to know whether Iguana is solely-owned by Khan of if there are other owners, and need to address Khan's transfer rights of Iguana.  We don't want him transferring managing member interests to 3rd parties for settlement of any debts he has incurred.  The rich find ways to preserve their riches, that's for sure.

[edjax]

DIA Meeting on Shipyards to be Feiday, March 6th at 9:00 AM in City Hall per Stephanie Brown, WOKV.

[jaxnyc79]

Precisely, he needs skin in the game. 

If he wants to be made "chief promoter of shipyards redevelopment," then that's all well and good, but we need clearly-defined redevelopment timelines and benchmarks, or title to the property should revert back to the city.  Other than being a very rich football team owner, I'm not sure what Khan has "paid in" to own a cleaned-up shipyards property.

The City needs to clean up this property - should have been done ages ago - so kudos to Khan for making that an urgency.

I'm sure the city knows to do this as part of due diligence, but need to know whether Iguana is solely-owned by Khan of if there are other owners, and need to address Khan's transfer rights of Iguana.  We don't want him transferring managing member interests to 3rd parties for settlement of any debts he has incurred.  The rich find ways to preserve their riches, that's for sure.

[simms3]

Precisely, he needs skin in the game. 

If he wants to be made "chief promoter of shipyards redeveloper," then that's all well and good, but we need clearly-defined redevelopment timelines and benchmarks, or title to the property should revert back to the city.  Other than being a very rich football team owner, I'm not sure what Khan has "paid in" to own a cleaned-up shipyards property.

The City needs to clean up this property - should have been done ages ago - so kudos to Khan for making that an urgency.

I'm sure the city knows to do this as part of due diligence, but need to know whether Iguana is solely-owned by Khan of if there are other owners, and need to address Khan's transfer rights of Iguana.  We don't want him transferring managing member interests to 3rd parties for settlement of any debts he has incurred.  The rich find ways to preserve their riches, that's for sure.

Khan has Paul Harden working for him.  Harden might be the best lawyer in the city.  Khan probably has a few other big city firms on speed dial - New York, Chicago, Atlanta, DC, LA firms.  The city of Jacksonville would be wise to spend up on legal fees (by hiring a good firm/team from a big city) to ensure that the taxpayers are protected here and the city is not getting duped by a guy who is probably smarter than anyone (by far) on the city's payroll.

And you can bet there are other partners in Iguana (easy to guess who they would be too), which might be an Operating Co for future subs/Property Cos that will be involved in various transactions related to the Shipyards.  Heck, if I had a few million I'd want to buddy up with Khan, knowing the City of Jax has a good way of shoveling tax payer money to those who ask for it appropriately.

[jaxnyc79]

^ Perfect response MM, and incredibly true.

Ennis, on the Landing, to me we're talking apples and oranges here. The Landing as it exists isn't perfect, but it has its use as a semi-iconic civic gathering space. Sleiman requested $12.8 million to basically neuter the space and turn it into a suburban apartment complex. Retail was limited, the courtyard that has become one of the primary gathering spots in the city was removed, and the thin strip of public space was separated from the "Landing" by a road. I don't get the impression that the public outcry was over the specific dollar contribution, but rather to the terrible design presented by Sleiman, coupled with his "taking my ball and going home" attitude when the city council suggested that public input was needed. If Sleiman's proposal would have been stronger and presented a new Landing that truly benefit the city, I think we would have seen a more favorable reaction.

Conversely, I think many, many, many (three manys!) people see Khan's proposed Shipyards development as a genuine way to increase quality of life in Jacksonville and kickstart a broader redevelopment of downtown at large. I think the average informed Jacksonville citizen realizes that no developer is going to clean up our mess for us, and that even if we have to open up the checkbook for remediation, riverwalk extension, and mooring of the USS Adams, these are all necessary improvements we'll eventually be on the hook for anyway.

The Populous video is a compelling visual, but it's just mere fantastical animation.  The link between that video and an increased quality of life for all 840 square miles of so of Jacksonville has yet to be established.  You are correct that the Shipyards property is the city's mess to clean, and that clean-up should be a near-term imperative, but once it is cleaned, it is far more valuable and appealing to lots of developers and project managers besides just Iguana.

Others might disagree, with I'm fine with the Shipyards being a short-term loss leader for a broader revitalization of downtown Jacksonville. We've already seen two major land purchases in the area partially credited to Khan's vision for the area (the Ford Plant, and the Drew Mansion in Springfield). Strategically, working with Khan ties the Jaguars to downtown Jacksonville, and puts the project in the hands of someone who has the drive, motivation, and capital to deliver as promised. And allocating the incremental tax revenue specifically for the Shipyards is fine in my book as well. Compare our sports complex -- which also receives specially allocated tax revenue for upkeep and remains one of the crown jewels of our city -- with the rest of our crumbling infrastructure.

What Khan has done is promotion.  Maybe one can credit his Populous video for the Ford Plant and Drew Mansion transactions, maybe not, I'm not sure about that, but you speak as though you have some inside info on this.

I think the city can probably negotiate a better than 80-20 split, but other than that, I really don't see anything terribly unreasonable with the Jaguars' terms, particularly when you consider the opportunity cost of either a) doing nothing with the site, or b) bringing in another developer who may not have the same incentive or capital to see the project to conclusion.

Really, you don't even care that there is no mention of minimum dollars invested by Iguana, or even timeframes for certain Iguana development milestones?  How does the property revert back to city ownership and control in case something happens to Khan, or Iguana, or if there is some failure in his performance?  And the 80/20 split is atrocious.  Yes, it may seem like it's not a big deal now with the property being as contaminated as it is, but once it's cleaned-up and being parceled off to 3rd parties, taxpayers should definitely reap more benefits on those land sales. 

People might hate him, but Paul Harden is a pretty smart guy. He's well aware of what the city can and cannot reasonably afford, and surely the Jaguars are familiar with how quickly capital improvement projects can die in Jacksonville if the developer asks for too much.

Ok, the counterparty is smart...that doesn't excuse the stewards of taxpayer dollars from a rigorous due diligence process, and for understanding market comparables for a cleaned-up piece of riverfront property.  Again, this property needs to be cleaned.  Once the city undertakes that effort to completion, we're talking about a very different kind of asset and negotiations.
Terms can be negotiated, but in my opinion, the project is a no brainer.

The city will never develop the Shipyards on its own, and if they did, it would cost five times as much, take twice as long, and fall apart within a decade. It's the Jacksonville way.

No one has showed any genuine, credible interest in developing the site in a decade.

Now, you've got a multi-billionaire with international ties who is committed to Jacksonville, has an intimate understanding of the market, and who is shaking with excitement over developing the property. He's got a great vision that makes downtown a destination, solidifies one of our biggest assets (the Jaguars) in Jacksonville once their lease runs out, and serves to give Jacksonville something it has struggled for decades to gain -- a recognizable identity.

It's the right project in the right spot with the right developer at the right time.

Opportunities like this come around but once or twice in a lifetime in a city like Jacksonville.

Yes, Jax has made a ton of mistakes in the past, but that's no reason to let a municipal inferiority complex screw over taxpayers yet again.

[Marle Brando]

^ Perfect response MM, and incredibly true.

Ennis, on the Landing, to me we're talking apples and oranges here. The Landing as it exists isn't perfect, but it has its use as a semi-iconic civic gathering space. Sleiman requested $12.8 million to basically neuter the space and turn it into a suburban apartment complex. Retail was limited, the courtyard that has become one of the primary gathering spots in the city was removed, and the thin strip of public space was separated from the "Landing" by a road. I don't get the impression that the public outcry was over the specific dollar contribution, but rather to the terrible design presented by Sleiman, coupled with his "taking my ball and going home" attitude when the city council suggested that public input was needed. If Sleiman's proposal would have been stronger and presented a new Landing that truly benefit the city, I think we would have seen a more favorable reaction.

Conversely, I think many, many, many (three manys!) people see Khan's proposed Shipyards development as a genuine way to increase quality of life in Jacksonville and kickstart a broader redevelopment of downtown at large. I think the average informed Jacksonville citizen realizes that no developer is going to clean up our mess for us, and that even if we have to open up the checkbook for remediation, riverwalk extension, and mooring of the USS Adams, these are all necessary improvements we'll eventually be on the hook for anyway.

The Populous video is a compelling visual, but it's just mere fantastical animation.  The link between that video and an increased quality of life for all 840 square miles of so of Jacksonville has yet to be established.  You are correct that the Shipyards property is the city's mess to clean, and that clean-up should be a near-term imperative, but once it is cleaned, it is far more valuable and appealing to lots of developers and project managers besides just Iguana.

Others might disagree, with I'm fine with the Shipyards being a short-term loss leader for a broader revitalization of downtown Jacksonville. We've already seen two major land purchases in the area partially credited to Khan's vision for the area (the Ford Plant, and the Drew Mansion in Springfield). Strategically, working with Khan ties the Jaguars to downtown Jacksonville, and puts the project in the hands of someone who has the drive, motivation, and capital to deliver as promised. And allocating the incremental tax revenue specifically for the Shipyards is fine in my book as well. Compare our sports complex -- which also receives specially allocated tax revenue for upkeep and remains one of the crown jewels of our city -- with the rest of our crumbling infrastructure.

What Khan has done is promotion.  Maybe one can credit his Populous video for the Ford Plant and Drew Mansion transactions, maybe not, I'm not sure about that, but you speak as though you have some inside info on this.

I thought he spoke as if he's I dunno maybe..READ a few articles that mentioned the buyers of both the Drew Mansion AND Ford Plant say for a fact that Khans interest in the area is what also peaked theirs as well. Doesn't take insider info to read. Everyones so quick to want to school somebody else without first going to class themselves.

[edjax]

Tony Khan just bought a sports analytical engineering firm based in Boston.  Perhaps one of the first tenants for the offices at the Shipyards!! Just kidding! It is a small company employee wise,,although they did state they will be expanding their products. 

[jaxnyc79]

^ Perfect response MM, and incredibly true.

Ennis, on the Landing, to me we're talking apples and oranges here. The Landing as it exists isn't perfect, but it has its use as a semi-iconic civic gathering space. Sleiman requested $12.8 million to basically neuter the space and turn it into a suburban apartment complex. Retail was limited, the courtyard that has become one of the primary gathering spots in the city was removed, and the thin strip of public space was separated from the "Landing" by a road. I don't get the impression that the public outcry was over the specific dollar contribution, but rather to the terrible design presented by Sleiman, coupled with his "taking my ball and going home" attitude when the city council suggested that public input was needed. If Sleiman's proposal would have been stronger and presented a new Landing that truly benefit the city, I think we would have seen a more favorable reaction.

Conversely, I think many, many, many (three manys!) people see Khan's proposed Shipyards development as a genuine way to increase quality of life in Jacksonville and kickstart a broader redevelopment of downtown at large. I think the average informed Jacksonville citizen realizes that no developer is going to clean up our mess for us, and that even if we have to open up the checkbook for remediation, riverwalk extension, and mooring of the USS Adams, these are all necessary improvements we'll eventually be on the hook for anyway.

The Populous video is a compelling visual, but it's just mere fantastical animation.  The link between that video and an increased quality of life for all 840 square miles of so of Jacksonville has yet to be established.  You are correct that the Shipyards property is the city's mess to clean, and that clean-up should be a near-term imperative, but once it is cleaned, it is far more valuable and appealing to lots of developers and project managers besides just Iguana.

Others might disagree, with I'm fine with the Shipyards being a short-term loss leader for a broader revitalization of downtown Jacksonville. We've already seen two major land purchases in the area partially credited to Khan's vision for the area (the Ford Plant, and the Drew Mansion in Springfield). Strategically, working with Khan ties the Jaguars to downtown Jacksonville, and puts the project in the hands of someone who has the drive, motivation, and capital to deliver as promised. And allocating the incremental tax revenue specifically for the Shipyards is fine in my book as well. Compare our sports complex -- which also receives specially allocated tax revenue for upkeep and remains one of the crown jewels of our city -- with the rest of our crumbling infrastructure.

What Khan has done is promotion.  Maybe one can credit his Populous video for the Ford Plant and Drew Mansion transactions, maybe not, I'm not sure about that, but you speak as though you have some inside info on this.

I thought he spoke as if he's I dunno maybe..READ a few articles that mentioned the buyers of both the Drew Mansion AND Ford Plant say for a fact that Khans interest in the area is what also peaked theirs as well. Doesn't take insider info to read. Everyones so quick to want to school somebody else without first going to class themselves.

Not sure what you mean by schooling someone and going to class, but presumably more due diligence went into the land transactions than just an announcement and video.  Redmond attributed the Ford sale to the Khan buzz, but he is selling.  I haven't seen where we've actually heard from the buyers.  Yes, we can go on the seller's version of events, but he and his four or five other partners are ready to exit.  I haven't seen a record of the buyer's actual motives for the transaction, and whether actually compelled by Khan's presentation.  But again, that's neither here nor there, the point is that Khan has no skin in the game.  Way too soon to draw conclusions on these plans and this deal.

[Marle Brando]

That's the thing. Nobody's drawing any conclusions here. People are merely expressing what they think, what they've heard, or what they hope will happen with the development. Everyone understands nothing is a conclusion until the dotted lines are signed. So chill guy, just as you speculate what you feel about Khans minimal risk, so can others express otherwise. No need to get bent over the uniformed, outsider discussions here. All of our info comes from the same sources available to the public. Geez. And yeah Khan should probably take on more risk but since my opinion doesn't sway the race, I just hope it gets done whether this deal or slightly altered one. If it takes this to be able to be more competitive, more attractive, more suitable for young professionals in Jax I'm for it. If it takes this to move the negative energy and backwards attitude so saturated in Jax so be it. If it takes this to get my city to finally act on Hogan Creek and LEARN how to play with the big boys in negotiations let's go!