Author Topic: Khan's Jacksonville Shipyards Plans Revealed  (Read 153992 times)

MEGATRON

  • Guest
Re: Khan's Jacksonville Shipyards Plans Revealed
« Reply #345 on: February 27, 2015, 10:26:49 AM »


And the 80/20 split is atrocious.  Yes, it may seem like it's not a big deal now with the property being as contaminated as it is, but once it's cleaned-up and being parceled off to 3rd parties, taxpayers should definitely reap more benefits on those land sales. 


So, are you concerned with the City making a profit off the land sales?  I'm not.  If the City ends up with $50M in the Shipyards land, I am perfectly fine if the City gets $50M out of the development and  a blighted piece of waterfront property is transformed into a significant and thriving development.  This concept that the Shipyards land is a City asset that is appreciating over time is foolish.  It's not.  The City should be concerned with its capital contribution netting to zero with the hope that the Shipyards development provides a much needed spark to downtown.

simms3

  • Guest
Re: Khan's Jacksonville Shipyards Plans Revealed
« Reply #346 on: February 27, 2015, 12:28:54 PM »
^^^Agreed.  But assuming a 20% split on proceeds from land sales, and earning out $50M from these proceeds, that implies that the Shipyards land is worth $250M.

I personally would contend that even after cleanup/riverwalk, etc, the land is still basically worthless (probably part of the reason why Khan wants 80%).  The land is only worth what you can build on it, and there's no proven market for building anything in DT Jax at this point.  Every product type is severely worthless or shown to be worthless, especially when you weigh in replacement cost/new construction vs just buying an existing building.  The only thing that might be worth something is multi - but do we want the whole thing lined with 220 Riversides?  And even then, with the "high" rents they're getting at 220 Riverside, those rents are still not high enough to justify a substantial land cost.

Steve

  • Metro Jacksonville
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1867
Re: Khan's Jacksonville Shipyards Plans Revealed
« Reply #347 on: February 27, 2015, 01:49:46 PM »
So, are you concerned with the City making a profit off the land sales?  I'm not.  If the City ends up with $50M in the Shipyards land, I am perfectly fine if the City gets $50M out of the development and  a blighted piece of waterfront property is transformed into a significant and thriving development.  This concept that the Shipyards land is a City asset that is appreciating over time is foolish.  It's not.  The City should be concerned with its capital contribution netting to zero with the hope that the Shipyards development provides a much needed spark to downtown.

Agreed. If the city breaks even on the entire deal, not only am I okay with that, they actually in because all of that land will then be private, and on the tax rolls.

Steve

  • Metro Jacksonville
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1867
Re: Khan's Jacksonville Shipyards Plans Revealed
« Reply #348 on: February 27, 2015, 01:54:44 PM »
I personally would contend that even after cleanup/riverwalk, etc, the land is still basically worthless (probably part of the reason why Khan wants 80%).  The land is only worth what you can build on it, and there's no proven market for building anything in DT Jax at this point.

Putting the environmental aspect aside (which the city clearly will have to do for any developer), I do think a comprehensive, multi-use development will create a market.

For example, let's say in 1995 you built a Pottery Barn and an apartment complex. It might do okay. However, if you build the rest of Town Center around both of them, then all of a sudden both are successful

simms3

  • Guest
Re: Khan's Jacksonville Shipyards Plans Revealed
« Reply #349 on: February 27, 2015, 02:02:42 PM »
^^^At the end of the day, though, this is isn't a self-sustaining bubble "live-work-play" load of bs.  It's all still contingent on "Downtown Jacksonville", which needs to rise up with the Shipyards, or there will be no Shipyards.  This location is also difficult as it's forced to be somewhat self-sustaining, and yet on its own it can't be.  Kind of a lot of catch 22's.

Developers aren't going to be looking at the Shipyards in a bubble (the figurative "if you build it they will come") like they actually MAY for parts of the Southside, or similarly transformative developments in already hot markets like Denver Union Station.  If a big office announcement is made, perhaps that is viewed as a "signal" that the market is about to be hot.  I'll wait and hope for that kind of announcement.

jaxnyc79

  • Guest
Re: Khan's Jacksonville Shipyards Plans Revealed
« Reply #350 on: February 27, 2015, 03:40:33 PM »


And the 80/20 split is atrocious.  Yes, it may seem like it's not a big deal now with the property being as contaminated as it is, but once it's cleaned-up and being parceled off to 3rd parties, taxpayers should definitely reap more benefits on those land sales. 


So, are you concerned with the City making a profit off the land sales?  I'm not.  If the City ends up with $50M in the Shipyards land, I am perfectly fine if the City gets $50M out of the development and  a blighted piece of waterfront property is transformed into a significant and thriving development.  This concept that the Shipyards land is a City asset that is appreciating over time is foolish.  It's not.  The City should be concerned with its capital contribution netting to zero with the hope that the Shipyards development provides a much needed spark to downtown.

I'm concerned with the City "giving up" 80% of the land sale proceeds.  What entitles Iguana to 80% of the proceeds?  The city spends money cleaning the property, installing some basic infrastructure on the site and surrounding sites, and insulating it from municipal bond-holders.  Iguana owns it, and then turns around and sells the property that has just been cleaned up by the city, to a 3rd party developer for some sum. 

MEGATRON

  • Guest
Re: Khan's Jacksonville Shipyards Plans Revealed
« Reply #351 on: February 27, 2015, 04:59:04 PM »


And the 80/20 split is atrocious.  Yes, it may seem like it's not a big deal now with the property being as contaminated as it is, but once it's cleaned-up and being parceled off to 3rd parties, taxpayers should definitely reap more benefits on those land sales. 


So, are you concerned with the City making a profit off the land sales?  I'm not.  If the City ends up with $50M in the Shipyards land, I am perfectly fine if the City gets $50M out of the development and  a blighted piece of waterfront property is transformed into a significant and thriving development.  This concept that the Shipyards land is a City asset that is appreciating over time is foolish.  It's not.  The City should be concerned with its capital contribution netting to zero with the hope that the Shipyards development provides a much needed spark to downtown.

I'm concerned with the City "giving up" 80% of the land sale proceeds.  What entitles Iguana to 80% of the proceeds?  The city spends money cleaning the property, installing some basic infrastructure on the site and surrounding sites, and insulating it from municipal bond-holders.  Iguana owns it, and then turns around and sells the property that has just been cleaned up by the city, to a 3rd party developer for some sum.
Why?  Are you that hung up on the City making a profit on the Shipyards?  I'm far more concerned with the City holding the property, being on the hook for the environmental cleanup (which it is not currently, but will be if it does not divest it soon), then being in the same predicament in five years.

If the City could have developed that property own it's own, it would have happened by now.  Get it into the hands of someone who can, spur growth downtown, and wash your hands of some environmental liability.  Let's stop thinking that the City should be in the real estate development business when it struggles meeting the requirements of those functions for which it is responsible.

downtownbrown

  • Guest
Re: Khan's Jacksonville Shipyards Plans Revealed
« Reply #352 on: February 27, 2015, 05:24:52 PM »
^that's exactly the point.  Who in city government has ever negotiated large development deals? This is an unproductive asset.  The city can only benefit by letting someone try to turn the footprint into something that creates a long term revenue stream for all citizens. COJ just doesn't have the juice to maximize price, splits, or outcome.

CityLife

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1840
Re: Khan's Jacksonville Shipyards Plans Revealed
« Reply #353 on: February 27, 2015, 06:38:50 PM »
^that's exactly the point.  Who in city government has ever negotiated large development deals? This is an unproductive asset.  The city can only benefit by letting someone try to turn the footprint into something that creates a long term revenue stream for all citizens. COJ just doesn't have the juice to maximize price, splits, or outcome.

How about Economic Development Director Ted Carter, who is a former exec at CBRE? Would you say Khan has more development experience than he does?

http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2012/11/16/commercial-real-estate-exec-from-dc.html

Or DIA Director Aundra Wallace. Carter was hired at $195k and Wallace at $180k.

If those guys aren't capable of getting a decent deal on behalf of the city, then perhaps the city needs to re-evaluate those positions. To suggest that Khan is the only one that can make something happen with the property once its remediated is ridiculous. As has been said by myself and others, if Khan wants to have some skin in the game and make a substantial investment...giving him the land is fine. The city can't remediate it, and then give him a blank check without some assurances though.


simms3

  • Guest
Re: Khan's Jacksonville Shipyards Plans Revealed
« Reply #354 on: February 27, 2015, 06:56:42 PM »
I think jaxnyc is mainly concerned with the city getting closer to breaking even off of this, or covering some losses.  The city's already in relatively deep, and will effectively double or maybe even triple its basis in the site without reaping any substantial benefits from selling the land to private interests.

If for anything at all, the city should get closer to a 50-50 split simply for PR and for covering its political tracks with the public (and in my opinion that would benefit Khan too if he wants to continue to be seen as the Lord Almighty savior of Jax and get away with taking advantage of the taxpayers to a degree).  But putting more taxpayer money into the land, and then giving it away, and allowing all future tax revenue from any development that occurs on the site to go back into the site (upfront), into private hands, is a major major lose-lose for the taxpayer.

Effectively, the city is spending a fortune on legal, on sunk/lost money on prior development deals, on remediation, cleanup, and improvements, and at most will get a few million back, while someone else with virtually no skin in the game can own the land and decide what to do next - sell to other group(s) for a profit for his investment vehicle, partner in development deals for his investment vehicle (where at least he's taking on risk), or sit on the land and do nothing, at no cost.

Nobody's hoping the city turns a big buck here.  The city's not a for profit business anyway.  However, if in the fat chance the city is ever trying to do something else (like build transit, convention center, more riverwalks, new parks, etc), it could turn a profit on a land sale such as this and recycle that cash somewhere else.  That's really what would be the ultimate goal.  However, I think we all understand this is Jacksonville.

If the city can't afford to mow road median lawns or replace street lights, then I don't think it can afford to effectively give away some of its most potentially valuable land (relatively speaking), and especially AFTER spending money (a fortune for Jax, too) to make it potentially valuable.  It's already giving away tax revenues on the land.

Frankly, I wish the city would just do ground leases.  Lots of similar pieces of land in other cities are owned by government entities, or ports, etc, and are on ground leases with minimal issues for seeing development.

The Landing appears to be moving forward, and that's on a ground lease.  It was pegged as a concern before (because who doesn't want to outright own the land), but now that a more market-based approach has been designed and penciled out, looks like nobody's having any issues with that ground lease now.  And the city still owns the land and has ultimate say, while Sleiman can redevelop the Landing basically to his liking, and from a financial perspective, the taxpayers don't lose out so bad.

MEGATRON

  • Guest
Re: Khan's Jacksonville Shipyards Plans Revealed
« Reply #355 on: February 27, 2015, 06:59:38 PM »
^that's exactly the point.  Who in city government has ever negotiated large development deals? This is an unproductive asset.  The city can only benefit by letting someone try to turn the footprint into something that creates a long term revenue stream for all citizens. COJ just doesn't have the juice to maximize price, splits, or outcome.

How about Economic Development Director Ted Carter, who is a former exec at CBRE? Would you say Khan has more development experience than he does?

http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2012/11/16/commercial-real-estate-exec-from-dc.html

Or DIA Director Aundra Wallace. Carter was hired at $195k and Wallace at $180k.

If those guys aren't capable of getting a decent deal on behalf of the city, then perhaps the city needs to re-evaluate those positions. To suggest that Khan is the only one that can make something happen with the property once its remediated is ridiculous. As has been said by myself and others, if Khan wants to have some skin in the game and make a substantial investment...giving him the land is fine. The city can't remediate it, and then give him a blank check without some assurances though.
Carter and Wallace still have to get approvals through the city. How has that worked out?

Regardless, I guess you view this as an asset the city should profit from, even if that risks it's development?

CityLife

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1840
Re: Khan's Jacksonville Shipyards Plans Revealed
« Reply #356 on: February 27, 2015, 07:17:27 PM »
^that's exactly the point.  Who in city government has ever negotiated large development deals? This is an unproductive asset.  The city can only benefit by letting someone try to turn the footprint into something that creates a long term revenue stream for all citizens. COJ just doesn't have the juice to maximize price, splits, or outcome.

How about Economic Development Director Ted Carter, who is a former exec at CBRE? Would you say Khan has more development experience than he does?

http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2012/11/16/commercial-real-estate-exec-from-dc.html

Or DIA Director Aundra Wallace. Carter was hired at $195k and Wallace at $180k.

If those guys aren't capable of getting a decent deal on behalf of the city, then perhaps the city needs to re-evaluate those positions. To suggest that Khan is the only one that can make something happen with the property once its remediated is ridiculous. As has been said by myself and others, if Khan wants to have some skin in the game and make a substantial investment...giving him the land is fine. The city can't remediate it, and then give him a blank check without some assurances though.
Regardless, I guess you view this as an asset the city should profit from, even if that risks it's development?

I've never said that at all, and I actually don't know that anyone in the entire thread has. Simply stating the city shouldn't get raked over the coals by Khan if he isn't going make contractual promises that he has deliver on.

I'm going to stop participating in this beating of a dead horse, but will expound on it a whole lot more if Khan does have an unfavorable proposal. For all we know, he may have grandiose projects already lined up and we may all just be spinning our wheels here.

simms3

  • Guest
Re: Khan's Jacksonville Shipyards Plans Revealed
« Reply #357 on: February 27, 2015, 07:45:54 PM »
^that's exactly the point.  Who in city government has ever negotiated large development deals? This is an unproductive asset.  The city can only benefit by letting someone try to turn the footprint into something that creates a long term revenue stream for all citizens. COJ just doesn't have the juice to maximize price, splits, or outcome.

How about Economic Development Director Ted Carter, who is a former exec at CBRE? Would you say Khan has more development experience than he does?

http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2012/11/16/commercial-real-estate-exec-from-dc.html

Or DIA Director Aundra Wallace. Carter was hired at $195k and Wallace at $180k.

If those guys aren't capable of getting a decent deal on behalf of the city, then perhaps the city needs to re-evaluate those positions. To suggest that Khan is the only one that can make something happen with the property once its remediated is ridiculous. As has been said by myself and others, if Khan wants to have some skin in the game and make a substantial investment...giving him the land is fine. The city can't remediate it, and then give him a blank check without some assurances though.
Regardless, I guess you view this as an asset the city should profit from, even if that risks it's development?

I've never said that at all, and I actually don't know that anyone in the entire thread has. Simply stating the city shouldn't get raked over the coals by Khan if he isn't going make contractual promises that he has deliver on.

I'm going to stop participating in this beating of a dead horse, but will expound on it a whole lot more if Khan does have an unfavorable proposal. For all we know, he may have grandiose projects already lined up and we may all just be spinning our wheels here.


If Khan has real stuff up his sleeve, the city should have full disclosure, and if that is the case, then the city DEFINITELY should not just hand over the land.  Of course there's going to be nothing at this point since at most, anything is just vision, which is mostly meaningless to most people.

If Khan has something up his sleeve, then the city should sell him the land at market rate; no 80-20 bs.  Then of course that just implies Khan is a middleman.  There's no reason the city can't just RFP at that point; and there's nobody out there who would increase their cost by going through a middleman like Khan versus dealing directly with the city simply because they feel they must go through Khan (again, the idea of extremely highly paid broker comes up).

I'm pretty sure there is nothing yet, or we wouldn't be having this discussion and the city would have RFP'd.  Of course, the implied assumption here is that once the land is cleaned up and improved, only Khan can go out and get someone to take a look at it, and the city would only spin its wheels by running an RFP.

At the end of the day, it would be nice to have the city clean the land, run and RFP, and then Khan comes and pitches, amongst other groups.

jaxnyc79

  • Guest
Re: Khan's Jacksonville Shipyards Plans Revealed
« Reply #358 on: February 27, 2015, 08:48:37 PM »
I think jaxnyc is mainly concerned with the city getting closer to breaking even off of this, or covering some losses.  The city's already in relatively deep, and will effectively double or maybe even triple its basis in the site without reaping any substantial benefits from selling the land to private interests.

If for anything at all, the city should get closer to a 50-50 split simply for PR and for covering its political tracks with the public (and in my opinion that would benefit Khan too if he wants to continue to be seen as the Lord Almighty savior of Jax and get away with taking advantage of the taxpayers to a degree).  But putting more taxpayer money into the land, and then giving it away, and allowing all future tax revenue from any development that occurs on the site to go back into the site (upfront), into private hands, is a major major lose-lose for the taxpayer.

Effectively, the city is spending a fortune on legal, on sunk/lost money on prior development deals, on remediation, cleanup, and improvements, and at most will get a few million back, while someone else with virtually no skin in the game can own the land and decide what to do next - sell to other group(s) for a profit for his investment vehicle, partner in development deals for his investment vehicle (where at least he's taking on risk), or sit on the land and do nothing, at no cost.

Nobody's hoping the city turns a big buck here.  The city's not a for profit business anyway.  However, if in the fat chance the city is ever trying to do something else (like build transit, convention center, more riverwalks, new parks, etc), it could turn a profit on a land sale such as this and recycle that cash somewhere else.  That's really what would be the ultimate goal.  However, I think we all understand this is Jacksonville.

If the city can't afford to mow road median lawns or replace street lights, then I don't think it can afford to effectively give away some of its most potentially valuable land (relatively speaking), and especially AFTER spending money (a fortune for Jax, too) to make it potentially valuable.  It's already giving away tax revenues on the land.

Frankly, I wish the city would just do ground leases.  Lots of similar pieces of land in other cities are owned by government entities, or ports, etc, and are on ground leases with minimal issues for seeing development.

The Landing appears to be moving forward, and that's on a ground lease.  It was pegged as a concern before (because who doesn't want to outright own the land), but now that a more market-based approach has been designed and penciled out, looks like nobody's having any issues with that ground lease now.  And the city still owns the land and has ultimate say, while Sleiman can redevelop the Landing basically to his liking, and from a financial perspective, the taxpayers don't lose out so bad.

Well said, and I do agree.

thelakelander

  • Metro Jacksonville
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26542
Re: Khan's Jacksonville Shipyards Plans Revealed
« Reply #359 on: February 28, 2015, 10:14:48 AM »
It would be interesting to compare Khan's Shipyards proposal with that of Jeff Vinik's for the Channelside area in Tampa

Something tells me a story is in the works... ;)