Zimmerman Found Not Guilty

[AKIRA]

Alan Dershowitz called it from the beginning, based on the weakness of the case.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

It was a weak case and did not do Trayvon justice.  I mean if Corey and her prosecutors were making their case based upon the screams hear over a cell phone as a murder 2 it really was a stretch and speakers to her penchant to overcharge defendants.  My question is "Why did she not change gears and go for a manslaughter conviction when police and FBI experts said there was no way to prove who screamed?"  Right there her case was undone, but did she back down from murder 2?  No she went blindly ahead thinking she could withhold evidence from the defense and use other tactics to get a conviction.  In my view, her inability to change gears and go for another lesser charge that they could possibly prove made this more about Corey having her way than it was about justice for Trayvon.  She has a big chip on her shoulder and doesn't like it knocked off.  In this case even FBI evidence telling her the basis of her case was not provable she did what she wanted anyway.

[Cheshire Cat]

I hear what you are saying Stephen, but Corey herself said the trial was never about race.  If that is her position then she has made it impossible to look at racial profiling as to the motive for Zimmermans actions.  While trial law isn't a science, forensic science is important to a jury and the outcome of a trial.  Corey failed Trayvon on all counts in this trial. 

The issue of profiling and rights is deeply important and perhaps a thread can be started to focus on that issue.  I think a lot of good discussion can be had about profiling, personal rights, rights of free movement and the like.

[duvalbill]

...anyone who thinks this isn't anything but a state-sanctioned lynching is being naive covertly racist.

Wow... Pretty broad statement there...

I often wonder if Stephen merely posts these type of flamebait statements to drive clicks for the site.

Well there's no reason to wonder.  It expresses my personal view.

I have yet to have someone explain their viewpoint on this without resorting to their opinions on the scariness of young black people.

Not even much more than a peep ---with the sole exception of not now, our curious LEO who thinks that facing death by handgun is something that average citizens should have to do whenever they step out to walmart.--- from people who are defending the right to become walking death machines (in self defense, of course) because, you know:  Liberty!  or something connected by vampire snot to the Second Amendment.

If this is the case, are we really saying that anyone who stalks, abducts, and murders a child can do so without penalty as long as they claim that they percieved the child as a threat?  Thats what happened in this case, and no matter how racist or how gun nutty you might personally be, this kind of precedent is an existential threat to you and your family.

Just like the media, you're making this out to be something it's not.  I have no idea how you could have listened to the testimony provided, the evidence produced or the state's shaky arguments and thought the outcome should have been any different.  This wasn't a matter of race, this was the worst possible scenario playing out.  Defenses based upon self-defense are decided on an ad hoc basis, and it's not as if this ruling gives any person the framework to beat a murder charge.

And what a crock for you to portray other's views as racist because they don't align with your tin-foil hat theory. 

[Cheshire Cat]

It was a weak case and did not do Trayvon justice.  I mean if Corey and her prosecutors were making their case based upon the screams hear over a cell phone as a murder 2 it really was a stretch and speakers to her penchant to overcharge defendants.  My question is "Why did she not change gears and go for a manslaughter conviction when police and FBI experts said there was no way to prove who screamed?"  Right there her case was undone, but did she back down from murder 2?  No she went blindly ahead thinking she could withhold evidence from the defense and use other tactics to get a conviction.  In my view, her inability to change gears and go for another lesser charge that they could possibly prove made this more about Corey having her way than it was about justice for Trayvon.  She has a big chip on her shoulder and doesn't like it knocked off.  In this case even FBI evidence telling her the basis of her case was not provable she did what she wanted anyway.

I think she made the mistake of thinking that all women on a jury were easier to convince when it came to a child, to be frank.

That has never been my own experience.  Especially when there is some doubt as to who was at fault situationally.

It was brilliant on the part of the defense to bring Zimmerman's mother to the case, and to present him as an ineffectual loser.  Since Trayvon is dead, Zimmerman became the only victim in the room.  Its hard to overcome that.

I agree.  Not sure what Corey was thinking about the jurors being all women, but as both a woman and mother I can say that if I were deciding what was to become of the life of any human being I would want to make my choice without any doubt as to their guilt.    Some others have said that six women, five white were not representative of Trayvon's and Zimmerman's peers.  But if they wish to point to the jury and say they didn't get the facts or emotion of the case because of their gender or color is in it's own right a racist view.  If the argument is that more Blacks on the jury would have led to a different outcome, it again comes back to the prosecution.  They agreed to the jurors and could have made motions to change the jury selection or fought to have 12 jurors instead of 6.  They didn't so once again the failed case goes back to the prosecution.  No one else.

[Jameson]

Stephen, you write: "Angela Corey was undermined by her own staff, leaking negatives about a teenager that had nothing to do with his murder and had a pretty huge task in front of her."

Leaking negatives about Trayvon's past? You mean like the racially charged and derogatory statements about women all over his Twitter feed? Or the pictures of him holding a gun? Or smoking weed? Or from the message boards about him looking for hydrocodone for sizzurp and claiming he's drank it before? Or his multiple suspensions from school? All of that is irrelevant, correct?

Yet at the same time, you think Zimmerman's past IS relevant. You talk about his past run-in with the law and post a link to a HuffPo article where one woman claims that Zimmerman and his family are racists?

Zimmerman's past and the opinions of others are fair game by your standards, but Trayvon's past and his destructive behavior leading up to him referring to Zimmerman by racial epithets and then attacking him for GZ asking "What are you doing?" is not?

Despite the fact that the FBI has already investigated him and cleared him of being a racist? Despite the fact that Det. Serino testified under oath that the profiling was not based on race?

It is apparent that you have an agenda and you are going to skew things to fit your agenda.

[Cheshire Cat]

Stephen, you write: "Angela Corey was undermined by her own staff, leaking negatives about a teenager that had nothing to do with his murder and had a pretty huge task in front of her."

Leaking negatives about Trayvon's past? You mean like the racially charged and derogatory statements about women all over his Twitter feed? Or the pictures of him holding a gun? Or smoking weed? Or from the message boards about him looking for hydrocodone for sizzurp and claiming he's drank it before? Or his multiple suspensions from school? All of that is irrelevant, correct?

Yet at the same time, you think Zimmerman's past IS relevant. You talk about his past run-in with the law and post a link to a HuffPo article where one woman claims that Zimmerman and his family are racists?

Zimmerman's past and the opinions of others are fair game by your standards, but Trayvon's past and his destructive behavior leading up to him referring to Zimmerman by racial epithets and then attacking him for GZ asking "What are you doing?" is not?

Despite the fact that the FBI has already investigated him and cleared him of being a racist? Despite the fact that Det. Serino testified under oath that the profiling was not based on race?

It is apparent that you have an agenda and you are going to skew things to fit your agenda.

Not a challenge or argument.  Can you tell me the post to which you are referring where such statements were made?  Thanks. 

[Jameson]

Both Zimmerman and Trayvon had opportunities to prevent this tragedy. The whole situation just sucks.

We can go back to the fact that Trayvon would have never even had been in Orlando had he not been suspended from school for 10 days. But even so, Zimmerman should have stopped pursuing him when told to by the dispatcher. Period. But even after that, when he asked Trayvon "What are you doing?", it could have ended there had Trayvon simply said "I'm walking back from the store, see?" But instead, it appears that he got defensive and a fight ensued ending in his tragic death. And if Trayvon was feeling threatened when he was being followed, why didn't he hang up with Rachel and dial 911?

And now here we are. A teenager is dead and Zimmerman has to live with that and he will never have a normal day in his life. It is a tragedy from every angle.

Shame on the media for jumping to conclusions, flat-out lying and distorting the facts to fit their agenda, the President for remarking on a state case that he has no business ever being involved in, the NAACP, Al Sharpton, and the New Black Panthers for stirring up the racial narrative to fit their agenda, Angela Corey's office for manipulating evidence and keeping it from the defense and the press, MSNBC for doctoring recordings to make Zimmerman sound like he was racial profiling, CNN for broadcasting Zimmerman's SSN and personal info, and so on and so on.

We can all learn from this. Most importantly that when "race" is made a focal point in any situation, it can only set us back as a society.

[Jameson]

Juries are fickle creatures, Diane.  In the end most attorneys really don't know what motivates the decisions or why the jurors make up their minds.

Law isnt a science, and our system of trial by jury Justice is an inexact process.  It beats Trial by aristocracy, to be sure, but theres no point in mistaking it for a foregone process.

Obviously there was enough evidence to convict OJ Simpson, for the crime that he was later legally found responsible for committing in a separate civil trial.  But the jurors didnt convict him for whatever reason, even though he did in fact murder nichole simpson and is presently in jail for another violent crime.

Angela Corey was undermined by her own staff, leaking negatives about a teenager that had nothing to do with his murder and had a pretty huge task in front of her.

But I don't think anyone is arguiing that Zimmerman's outcome should be reversed by the Jury or Judge.

Thats fait accompli, but as in the case of the OJ Simpson case, it is not (nor should it be) the end of the legal matters.

Profiling is a violation of Trayvon's Civil Rights.

He has the right to walk through the streets of a city without being profiled and accosted based on his race. 

However, Zimmerman admitted to profiling the kid.  No one has denied that he profiled him.

This was probably under the assumption that since Zimmerman wasnt actually a cop that it didnt matter.  We usually proceed on the basis that profiling is something that cops do, and if they get caught, then its unfair.  In fact the Supremes have found it unconstitutional.

But what happens when a private citizen profiles?

Well thats a different question isnt it?

Stephen, above is the post where you state the line I was referring to in my previous post.

I read the statement as though you found it to be "wrong" that there were leaks in the media about Trayvon's past.

Yet at the same time on page 2 of this very same thread, you dedicate 2 very long posts questioning Zimmerman's past run in with the law, his character, and that of his family.

[Cheshire Cat]

Both Zimmerman and Trayvon had opportunities to prevent this tragedy. The whole situation just sucks.

We can go back to the fact that Trayvon would have never even had been in Orlando had he not been suspended from school for 10 days. But even so, Zimmerman should have stopped pursuing him when told to by the dispatcher. Period. But even after that, when he asked Trayvon "What are you doing?", it could have ended there had Trayvon simply said "I'm walking back from the store, see?" But instead, it appears that he got defensive and a fight ensued ending in his tragic death. And if Trayvon was feeling threatened when he was being followed, why didn't he hang up with Rachel and dial 911?

And now here we are. A teenager is dead and Zimmerman has to live with that and he will never have a normal day in his life. It is a tragedy from every angle.

Shame on the media for jumping to conclusions, flat-out lying and distorting the facts to fit their agenda, the President for remarking on a state case that he has no business ever being involved in, the NAACP, Al Sharpton, and the New Black Panthers for stirring up the racial narrative to fit their agenda, Angela Corey's office for manipulating evidence and keeping it from the defense and the press, MSNBC for doctoring recordings to make Zimmerman sound like he was racial profiling, CNN for broadcasting Zimmerman's SSN and personal info, and so on and so on.

We can all learn from this. Most importantly that when "race" is made a focal point in any situation, it can only set us back as a society.

I agree with your overall sentiment, but there was no testimony to Zimmerman asking Trayvon what he was doing.  The only commentary that was testified to by either side was Zimmerman saying that just before the altercation, Trayvon approached him saying "You have a problem with me?" and Zimmerman says he responded "No I don't have problem with you" and then said Trayvon struck him.  I agree with your statement that media helped to inflame people and did participate in the broadcast of partial truth's which is why NBC is being sued.

The Martin case has become the proverbial "Straw that broke the Camels Back".  Trayvon became every black man who has ever been profiled or suspected because of race and Zimmerman became every non black that has acted with prejudice toward Black men.  That is the outcropping of the case.  The reality is that Zimmerman is just "some guy" not an authority figure and Trayvon is a young man who was killed as a result of the zeal with which he was pursued by another.  Neither one perfect.  Just two people.  Zimmerman was the adult in this situation and in my view he is responsible for his actions that led up to Trayvon's death, but he is not the guy to point to when it comes to issues of racial profiling because the prosecution said this was not about race.  Zimmerman represents no one in this situation but himself, not all whites or Hispanics for that matter. Just himself.

[Cheshire Cat]

Both Zimmerman and Trayvon had opportunities to prevent this tragedy. The whole situation just sucks.

We can go back to the fact that Trayvon would have never even had been in Orlando had he not been suspended from school for 10 days. But even so, Zimmerman should have stopped pursuing him when told to by the dispatcher. Period. But even after that, when he asked Trayvon "What are you doing?", it could have ended there had Trayvon simply said "I'm walking back from the store, see?" But instead, it appears that he got defensive and a fight ensued ending in his tragic death. And if Trayvon was feeling threatened when he was being followed, why didn't he hang up with Rachel and dial 911?

And now here we are. A teenager is dead and Zimmerman has to live with that and he will never have a normal day in his life. It is a tragedy from every angle.

Shame on the media for jumping to conclusions, flat-out lying and distorting the facts to fit their agenda, the President for remarking on a state case that he has no business ever being involved in, the NAACP, Al Sharpton, and the New Black Panthers for stirring up the racial narrative to fit their agenda, Angela Corey's office for manipulating evidence and keeping it from the defense and the press, MSNBC for doctoring recordings to make Zimmerman sound like he was racial profiling, CNN for broadcasting Zimmerman's SSN and personal info, and so on and so on.

We can all learn from this. Most importantly that when "race" is made a focal point in any situation, it can only set us back as a society.

Shame on you, Jameson.  Shame on you.  It sounds like the minute someone mentioned race, you forgot that it was about a child killing.

And btw, your last point is nonsense.  Do you think the Civil Rights Movement set us back as a nation?  Poppycock.

Stephen, why the shame on you?  Jameson is stating their view as they are entitled to.  You don't have to agree but please don't go after those who disagree with you all of the time.  Perhaps it would be better to try and understand what others think without making their views inferior.  It makes for better discussion that can possibly lead to understanding.

[Cheshire Cat]

Juries are fickle creatures, Diane.  In the end most attorneys really don't know what motivates the decisions or why the jurors make up their minds.

Law isnt a science, and our system of trial by jury Justice is an inexact process.  It beats Trial by aristocracy, to be sure, but theres no point in mistaking it for a foregone process.

Obviously there was enough evidence to convict OJ Simpson, for the crime that he was later legally found responsible for committing in a separate civil trial.  But the jurors didnt convict him for whatever reason, even though he did in fact murder nichole simpson and is presently in jail for another violent crime.

Angela Corey was undermined by her own staff, leaking negatives about a teenager that had nothing to do with his murder and had a pretty huge task in front of her.

But I don't think anyone is arguiing that Zimmerman's outcome should be reversed by the Jury or Judge.

Thats fait accompli, but as in the case of the OJ Simpson case, it is not (nor should it be) the end of the legal matters.

Profiling is a violation of Trayvon's Civil Rights.

He has the right to walk through the streets of a city without being profiled and accosted based on his race. 

However, Zimmerman admitted to profiling the kid.  No one has denied that he profiled him.

This was probably under the assumption that since Zimmerman wasnt actually a cop that it didnt matter.  We usually proceed on the basis that profiling is something that cops do, and if they get caught, then its unfair.  In fact the Supremes have found it unconstitutional.

But what happens when a private citizen profiles?

Well thats a different question isnt it?

Stephen, above is the post where you state the line I was referring to in my previous post.

I read the statement as though you found it to be "wrong" that there were leaks in the media about Trayvon's past.

Yet at the same time on page 2 of this very same thread, you dedicate 2 very long posts questioning Zimmerman's past run in with the law, his character, and that of his family.

Semantics perhaps?  The statement does speak to the leaking of information about Trayvon.  When did that happen and who did the leaking.  It really is another sad statement about the SAO.

[duvalbill]

...anyone who thinks this isn't anything but a state-sanctioned lynching is being naive covertly racist.

Wow... Pretty broad statement there...

I often wonder if Stephen merely posts these type of flamebait statements to drive clicks for the site.

Well there's no reason to wonder.  It expresses my personal view.

I have yet to have someone explain their viewpoint on this without resorting to their opinions on the scariness of young black people.

Not even much more than a peep ---with the sole exception of not now, our curious LEO who thinks that facing death by handgun is something that average citizens should have to do whenever they step out to walmart.--- from people who are defending the right to become walking death machines (in self defense, of course) because, you know:  Liberty!  or something connected by vampire snot to the Second Amendment.

If this is the case, are we really saying that anyone who stalks, abducts, and murders a child can do so without penalty as long as they claim that they percieved the child as a threat?  Thats what happened in this case, and no matter how racist or how gun nutty you might personally be, this kind of precedent is an existential threat to you and your family.

Just like the media, you're making this out to be something it's not.  I have no idea how you could have listened to the testimony provided, the evidence produced or the state's shaky arguments and thought the outcome should have been any different.  This wasn't a matter of race, this was the worst possible scenario playing out.  Defenses based upon self-defense are decided on an ad hoc basis, and it's not as if this ruling gives any person the framework to beat a murder charge.

And what a crock for you to portray other's views as racist because they don't align with your tin-foil hat theory.

Im sorry, bill.  I really cant make out what you are trying to say.  What are you saying is not a matter of race?  The child killing by Zimmerman or the verdict that the jury came back with?

I assumed we were discussing this case, and the media sensationalism surrounding it.  The facts of this matter led to a jury acquitting Zimmerman of the charges filed by the State.  Seemingly, you believe that anyone that agrees with the Jury's acquittal is a "covert racist," when the facts of this case seemingly show that Zimmerman possessed a reasonable fear for his life.  No one's happy that a child died, but believing that this case will lead to an "open season," on African-Americans is nonsensical. 

For the record, I'm not scared of any race of people, and think the jury came to the proper decision.  It's a tragic situation, no doubt, but the race card is unnecessary as it relates to this case.

[Cheshire Cat]

The case if the prosecution is to be believed was not about race.  However for many it was and is.  For me it is easy to see how this can be about race if you are a Black, a minority member or a non bigoted individual.  The problem I have is that somehow in the minds of some Zimmerman became an authority figure who profiled.  He was not an authority figure, just a guy on a neighborhood watch team.  What happened is his actions then morphed into "profiling by authorities".  It wasn't.  Perhaps Zimmerman is a bigot and his motivation was based in a racist view, that just makes him a "bigot".  I frankly don't know how we can pretend that we can get into everyone's head and stop them for viewing others through the lens of race.  The only thing we can do is to address the laws and how and if they permit racial profiling as used and applied by authorities.  To deal with all the racists and bigots in the world is a much bigger more complicated issues and not one that I think we can legislate into being but rather one we can educate about.

[MEGATRON]

If this is the case, are we really saying that anyone who stalks, abducts, and murders a child can do so without penalty as long as they claim that they percieved the child as a threat?

You are taking a lot of liberties with the facts, Stephen.  The facts that most agree upon are:

• Neighborhood had seen a rise in break ins
• Zimmerman, right or wrong, decided he was going to play neighborhood watch
• Zimmerman spots Martin and follows him, while calling the police
• Martin sprints away from Zimmerman
• Martin and Zimmerman end up in a fight
• Martin ends up on top of Zimmerman and Zimmerman shoots him

The testimonial discrepancies differ between 5 and 6 above.  Now, if the evidence had shown that Zimmerman had sprinted after Martin, tackled him, fought him and then shot him, I think the verdict would have been very different.  However, that's not what the evidenced showed.  Instead, there was evidence that Zimmerman continued his pursuit of Martin (walking, not running) and that Martin jumped out from behind some bushes and attacked Zimmerman.  Very different scenarios.  So different that it cast reasonable doubt on the prosecution's case.