Khan's Jacksonville Shipyards Plans Revealed

[downtownbrown]

Yes, I get that.  I lived in Boston before the Big Dig.  But in this case, if I am driving from anywhere in the Core toward the Beaches, I'd rather jump on the Hart Bridge via Liberty Street than have to drive through the Shipyards, and past and around the stadium.

you just drive down Bay Street (which is remade into a boulevard)...and then up the ramp onto the bridge somewhere around Met Park.

Hey, look, if Khan builds anything like that, I'll gladly walk to the beach if I want to go there.

[BoldCityRealist]

Personally I think worrying about who is getting the spotlight is part of the ongoing problem with Jacksonville.  The old guard always more concerned about who is getting credit instead of actually doing anything.  I believe this was also alluded to by the guy that came here to head Visit Jacksonville.  To me the spotlight can shine brightly on him if he actually accomplishes something here.  Sorta like Rummel is for Healthy Town and Coley for Brooklyn.

....and what Sleiman *could* be for the Landing if he wasn't a greedy, visionless slimeball. I mean, does this dude realize this could be his legacy project?

[TimmyB]

I tried to read through all 13 pages of comments, but my eyes are burning, so I might have missed one or two.  What I don't understand about all of the negativity is this: this guy is a private citizen, not an elected official.  All he has done here is released a concept, in very much the same way that auto manufacturers release concept cars at the big auto shows each year.  They gauge the response, they use that feedback to decide what stays and what goes.  Or, what doesn't get built at all.  No one knows the cost, and no one in these comments seems to have knowledge of any public cost there might be.  How is this a bad thing?

I know I'm an outsider looking in, but I agree with many of the others: assuming that the public trough is not on the hook for money it doesn't have, how can it hurt to listen to this plan BEFORE tearing it to shreds?

[Overstreet]

^ to the last point of filling in more of the river:  I wonder if the architects are mindful of the currents.  They can be quite strong as it is.  Create a high pressure choke point and it is going to change the physics of the area and make those placid looking marina additions much more challenging.  That's why you don't see marinas sticking out from River Street in downtown Savannah.

The actual physical cost of filling in portions of the river, the consequential costs and the regulatory permits will modify those ideas.

[Gunnar]

Yes, I get that.  I lived in Boston before the Big Dig.  But in this case, if I am driving from anywhere in the Core toward the Beaches, I'd rather jump on the Hart Bridge via Liberty Street than have to drive through the Shipyards, and past and around the stadium.

you just drive down Bay Street (which is remade into a boulevard)...and then up the ramp onto the bridge somewhere around Met Park.

Hey, look, if Khan builds anything like that, I'll gladly walk to the beach if I want to go there.

Well, if this adds enough people to downtown then maybe, just maybe this could be an incentive to build a light / metro rail connection to the beaches... one can always dream.

[downtownbrown]

^ to the last point of filling in more of the river:  I wonder if the architects are mindful of the currents.  They can be quite strong as it is.  Create a high pressure choke point and it is going to change the physics of the area and make those placid looking marina additions much more challenging.  That's why you don't see marinas sticking out from River Street in downtown Savannah.

The actual physical cost of filling in portions of the river, the consequential costs and the regulatory permits will modify those ideas.

Can't tell from the drawings, but I wonder how much of the concept is intended to be on piers.  The water feature (paddle boat pond?) where the Berkman marina is now could be enclosed, I suppose. Is it even possible that environmentalists would allow fill in that area?  Doubt it.

[Kerry]

There seems to be this misconception that because Khan is a billionaire he is automatically a good real estate developer and urban planner.  I can point people to a lot of urban developments built by billionaires that suck.

[JeffreyS]

I think you're misreading the comments Kerry. I think people think it's good because they like what they see and they think Khan can get it done because he's a billionaire.

[PeeJayEss]

Also, Khan, the man himself, is no real estate man.  No engineer.  No architect.  He does have the money to hire the best, though.  It would appear he has not done so.

Simms,

You just completely lost my respect for all of your statements out of the window when you called Mr. Khan a "no engineer." when he is really an engineer for a long time. He is a engineer-oriented business man, so he does have some idea of what engineering concepts can work or not.

Bloody hell.

-Josh

Well, Josh, I would call that a bit of an over-reaction. Calling him not-an-engineer was a pretty honest mistake that simms admitted to being incorrect about. So some chilling is in order, I believe. Nonetheless, the spirit of simms' comment holds true. While Khan may be a trained engineer, he is no longer working as an engineer. He is a businessman now, and I imagine he is pretty far removed from the engineering he may have been doing at Flex-N-Gate. Additionally, he has a degree in Industrial Engineering and worked as the Director of Engineering for Flex-N-Gate, so he was likely working on systems design (assembly-line productivity and efficiency) or even mostly management-type work. All that is to say, he is not himself qualified to design large-span structures. So, as far as this development project is concerned, he is "no engineer." Plus, he doesn't have a PE, so engineering schooling or not, he is not really an engineer...unless he works on trains or large ships (so, maybe).

He may have a better idea of what building design will work than an art history major, but he is still not qualified to build buildings.

There seems to be this misconception that because Khan is a billionaire he is automatically a good real estate developer and urban planner.  I can point people to a lot of urban developments built by billionaires that suck.

Anything with the word "Trump" on it?

[KenFSU]

[PeeJayEss]

I should have been clear. I'm not exactly agreeing with simms, I'm just explaining why I think Josh's comment was uncalled for.

[RattlerGator]

The dap that simms gets on this board is so disappointing. He's so obviously a weirdly-obsessed troll, and rather sophomoric too -- even if knowledgeable about some matters, he's wildly ignorant on others.

How in the hell do you not know Shad Khan is an engineer? What the hell are you paying attention too? Oh, that's right -- some San Francisco shiznit that few in Jacksonville give a flying f*ck about.

I mean, the guy just generated a rather detailed critique of a presentation produced for a rather obvious reason -- and he had no clue !?! But it didn't matter; simms wanted to crap on Jacksonville. Apparently, someone bitch-slapped simms in Riverside or something and the force from that event has lingering effects to this day.

Damn.

Why elevate this simms character in the slightest? Is the attention that he pays to this board that flattering? His initial response in this thread is a complete joke, written like a butt-hurt wannabe nativist masquerading all around this board who secretly wishes he had the money of this Shad Khan Pakstani interloper guy. It was a genuinely offensive and unserious take, written from a completely mistaken perspective. I don't see how it could be read otherwise. For someone so supposedly knowledgeable, it was as if there was only one way to make an initial presentation regarding the Shipyards. The simms way. Well, Massa simms, yo ass be wrong on that score.

It would be nice if more of the critiques followed the model of lakelander and others who acknowledged the evident ambition of the project but reasonably wanted to see and hear more. At worst, that's where the city it. More than likely, though, the city is quite right to be super excited Shad Khan is driving this train and not the people who bitched so much about the damn scoreboards (including the San Francisco Simms of the world).

[southsider1015]

The dap that simms gets on this board is so disappointing. He's so obviously a weirdly-obsessed troll, and rather sophomoric too -- even if knowledgeable about some matters, he's wildly ignorant on others.

How in the hell do you not know Shad Khan is an engineer? What the hell are you paying attention too? Oh, that's right -- some San Francisco shiznit that few in Jacksonville give a flying f*ck about.

I mean, the guy just generated a rather detailed critique of a presentation produced for a rather obvious reason -- and he had no clue !?! But it didn't matter; simms wanted to crap on Jacksonville. Apparently, someone bitch-slapped simms in Riverside or something and the force from that event has lingering effects to this day.

Damn.

Why elevate this simms character in the slightest? Is the attention that he pays to this board that flattering? His initial response in this thread is a complete joke, written like a butt-hurt wannabe nativist masquerading all around this board who secretly wishes he had the money of this Shad Khan Pakstani interloper guy. It was a genuinely offensive and unserious take, written from a completely mistaken perspective. I don't see how it could be read otherwise. For someone so supposedly knowledgeable, it was as if there was only one way to make an initial presentation regarding the Shipyards. The simms way. Well, Massa simms, yo ass be wrong on that score.

It would be nice if more of the critiques followed the model of lakelander and others who acknowledged the evident ambition of the project but reasonably wanted to see and hear more. At worst, that's where the city it. More than likely, though, the city is quite right to be super excited Shad Khan is driving this train and not the people who bitched so much about the damn scoreboards (including the San Francisco Simms of the world).

Can we at least get something straight here?  Industrial engineers are not engineers in the literal sense.  Khan has absolutely no idea about the entitlement, legal, engineering, regulatory, and environmental issues surrounding that concept.  I believe this was simms point.

Again, it's just a neat concept to excite and inspire.   Nothing more.  Let's chat when some real designs are made when the pens hit the paper.

[JeffreyS]

You can chat whenever you want.

[DrewKB]

As you guys take this in, you might find it interesting to compare and critique against my thesis project that I shared on the site last May at http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php?topic=21546.0.  I realize that this proposal has more developed structures than mine did, but the site, overall goals, and presentation are very similar.