Author Topic: Khan's Jacksonville Shipyards Plans Revealed  (Read 153825 times)

jaxnyc79

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Re: Khan's Jacksonville Shipyards Plans Revealed
« Reply #315 on: February 25, 2015, 08:11:35 PM »
Just took a quick look at the term sheet.

Seems very one-sided.

What real risk is Shad Khan taking? 

The Term Sheet compels the city to clean up the property and surrounding areas, and secure grants and other incentives at the state and federal levels.  "Iguana" oversees it all.  Iguana gets the cleaned up property, builds practice fields and maybe a hotel, and sells off the land (or at least development rights) to developers, and gets 80% of the proceeds on something they've paid very little into.  If the city will clean up the property and install a bunch of infrastructure, it should at least give over project management rights to someone experienced in executing massive urban real estate projects. 

Khan is a great businessman, yes, but I haven't seen where he has much background in this...perhaps someone in this thread can show me otherwise.

That's some gumption going to the city with a term sheet that really only revolves around what the city has to get done.  There's nothing in there about any meaningful obligations of Iguana...Iguana seems to have very little to no "balance sheet" risk in this thing.  Iguana seems to be a glorified broker with an insane commission rate on development sales.

Again, not a real estate or deal guy, but was just surprised at what I saw.  Other perspectives on this?  Trying to be respectful of everyone's opinions.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2015, 08:23:52 PM by jaxnyc79 »

jaxnyc79

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Re: Khan's Jacksonville Shipyards Plans Revealed
« Reply #316 on: February 25, 2015, 08:14:08 PM »
Having said all that, the City should clean up the property and Hogan's Creek, whether someone wants to develop it or not.  I think the city has a moral obligation to do that.  Should have been done...like...yesterday.

fieldafm

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Re: Khan's Jacksonville Shipyards Plans Revealed
« Reply #317 on: February 25, 2015, 08:16:11 PM »
I re-read what I wrote and don't see where that conclusion could come from. Sorry for any communication deficiencies on my part. Simply thinking that there are stormwater fees sitting around just waiting to be spent is not accurate. The City is already very far behind on funding the infrastructure projects required to meet state mandates in regards to water quality... Which are paid for via these stormwater revenues.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2015, 08:19:54 PM by fieldafm »

edjax

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Re: Khan's Jacksonville Shipyards Plans Revealed
« Reply #318 on: February 25, 2015, 08:22:08 PM »
Well thanks. 

Marle Brando

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Re: Khan's Jacksonville Shipyards Plans Revealed
« Reply #319 on: February 25, 2015, 09:50:40 PM »
Fieldafm, if you look at my earlier post I clearly said PER Daily Record. I'm not just making up facts out of my arse, I read it and simply relayed the info. I don't know the amount of stormwater funding available for the city to use nor am I going to suggest that it can all be done from those funds as I am not privy to any info beyond what's printed and presented here. The estimated cleanup is at around 20mil so far according to the article as well, which sited the one responsible for providing that estimate..not my own numbers. I'm no expert and I'm not behind my desk pretending to be.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2015, 10:08:22 PM by Marle Brando »

Marle Brando

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Re: Khan's Jacksonville Shipyards Plans Revealed
« Reply #320 on: February 25, 2015, 09:56:15 PM »
Having said all that, the City should clean up the property and Hogan's Creek, whether someone wants to develop it or not.  I think the city has a moral obligation to do that.  Should have been done...like...yesterday.
Exactly how I feel too, I hope Iguana makes Hogans Creek an unwavering sticking point in negotiations as I'm afraid the poor creek won't ever be activated if the city's hand isn't forced.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2015, 10:08:54 PM by Marle Brando »

edjax

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Re: Khan's Jacksonville Shipyards Plans Revealed
« Reply #321 on: February 25, 2015, 10:12:32 PM »
Fieldafm, if you look at my earlier post I clearly said PER Daily Record. I'm not just making up facts out of my arse, I read it and simply relayed the info. I don't know the amount of stormwater funding available for the city to use nor am I going to suggest that it can all be done from those funds as I am not privy to any info beyond what's printed and presented here. The estimated cleanup is at around 20mil so far according to the article as well, which sited the one responsible for providing that estimate..not my own numbers. I'm no expert and I'm not behind my desk pretending to be.

Yea,,that was my point to him too, but....

Thinckup

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Re: Khan's Jacksonville Shipyards Plans Revealed
« Reply #322 on: February 25, 2015, 11:29:56 PM »
Wow. Even though I am in the middle of actively pursuing leaving this sometimes craphole town, this is giving me pause.

Hey Realist, give me a call and I will help you move.

Thinckup

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Re: Khan's Jacksonville Shipyards Plans Revealed
« Reply #323 on: February 26, 2015, 12:08:05 AM »
Huge project. Glad the Kahn is involved. The city should act tough and then roll over give him whatever it takes to get the deal done so the area doesn't sit idle for 20 more years. I am curious about parking. It would also be nice if there was some sort of mass transit. Metro park to Liberty is a hell of a hike, especially for suburbanites.

simms3

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Re: Khan's Jacksonville Shipyards Plans Revealed
« Reply #324 on: February 26, 2015, 02:14:25 AM »
Just took a quick look at the term sheet.

Seems very one-sided.

What real risk is Shad Khan taking? 

The Term Sheet compels the city to clean up the property and surrounding areas, and secure grants and other incentives at the state and federal levels.  "Iguana" oversees it all.  Iguana gets the cleaned up property, builds practice fields and maybe a hotel, and sells off the land (or at least development rights) to developers, and gets 80% of the proceeds on something they've paid very little into.  If the city will clean up the property and install a bunch of infrastructure, it should at least give over project management rights to someone experienced in executing massive urban real estate projects. 

Khan is a great businessman, yes, but I haven't seen where he has much background in this...perhaps someone in this thread can show me otherwise.

That's some gumption going to the city with a term sheet that really only revolves around what the city has to get done.  There's nothing in there about any meaningful obligations of Iguana...Iguana seems to have very little to no "balance sheet" risk in this thing.  Iguana seems to be a glorified broker with an insane commission rate on development sales.

Again, not a real estate or deal guy, but was just surprised at what I saw.  Other perspectives on this?  Trying to be respectful of everyone's opinions.

This.

thelakelander

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Re: Khan's Jacksonville Shipyards Plans Revealed
« Reply #325 on: February 26, 2015, 06:38:45 AM »
Can someone explain the big difference in Sleiman's request for $12.8 million and Khan's request for the Shipyards? It's interesting to see the difference in public reaction.

Noone

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Re: Khan's Jacksonville Shipyards Plans Revealed
« Reply #326 on: February 26, 2015, 06:54:13 AM »
^ Might as well throw in the JEA property. Hope that anyone that attends today's ribbon cutting ceremony of the Southbank Riverwalk when you walk to the end of the by the DCPS building  ask yourselves why this 15 or 20' is not a hand launch for small watercraft. Seriously.

jcjohnpaint

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Re: Khan's Jacksonville Shipyards Plans Revealed
« Reply #327 on: February 26, 2015, 08:24:51 AM »
One of the interesting points brought up is that if this were to happen, we likely aren't seeing much office/residential/hotel for a while, since we'll need to wait on the absorption of this space.

The one exception might be hotel-IF the city builds the convention center. I think with this development and a convention center, Jacksonville can transform very quickly into a pretty decent convention city.

I think Jax could be a decent convention town.


I'm worried all we'll end up with is a practice field on the riverfront.

^If were just going to divide it up and sell it off, we could do it ourselves and keep 100% of the profit and 100% of the tax revenues, instead of 20% and 0%.

Taca, the city has already stated that there's no interest in dividing up the parcel.

There is no "interest" because Shad Khan is guiding the process and playing puppetmaster.

I do agree with Taca that the city could act as master developer and keep 100% of profits. However, I think in that scenario just about anyone would seek property tax abatements of some sort. I think pretty much everyone is asking for the REV Grant from COJ these days. I don't think Khan should be punished for being wealthy and should qualify for abatements just as any old Joe would. However, I do think that the 80-20 proposition is ridiculous. That needs to get a lot closer to 50% before the city takes it on....unless of course Khan has a few aces up his sleeve (like a major corporate relocation). 

The city could.  Other cities do have very strong agencies with competent people who know how to properly develop these things or get these things developed.  I don't believe Jacksonville is such city.  In fact, I would guess that overall the city has some of the least competent people working for it.

Khan seemingly came up with a process to move forward with development, and he has the wherewithal to find people to develop it.  He will implement, so he's asking to be paid for this.  If the city were competent, this would all have been done years ago.

The City's basis in the Shipyards is the $36.5M given to TriLegacy.  That's it.  It owns the Shipyards strictly as a secured creditor (oh, and under state and federal regs, as a secured creditor, it becomes entirely liable for the contamination if it does not actively try to convey the property in a commercial feasible manner). 

Under Khan's proposal, the City's basis in the property is $36.5M plus whatever capital costs Khan is seeking.  Seems to me, the 20% that goes to the City plus future tax revenues eventually covers the City's basis in the property.

If the City breaks even on this deal, it's a win.  That property has been idle for far too long. 

But my understanding is that future tax revenues go to Khan/Shipyards development groups?  Also, how much is all of this land worth?  Let's say 30 out of 53 acres gets sold at $2M/acre.  City makes $11-12M back, which is chump change.  Future tax revenues are certainly not going to be all that much either, and won't be realized for many decades (and it sounds like they will be used to pay off a loan secured by TIF bonds issued by the city, in other words, Khan pulls tax revenue out up front, city gets paid back many years later).

My question with the TIF is that if it's all 1 district and Khan wants all TIF to go to the Shipyards - does that prevent other developers from benefiting the way Khan wants to benefit?  And what if a successful Shipyards plays a role in doubling the value of other buildings downtown.  He gets all of that incremental tax revenue as well?  What's the time period?  When does the district expire?

Great point.  I believe the city should have remedied the land contamination a long time ago and should be responsible.  Our city leaders have created a city that is a bad investment period.  Our downtown is a bad investment from an outsider/  I love this city, but it is true.  I don't think anyone is going to come along and break us a better deal.  I do think we have negotiating to do, but I am concerned that the city wouldn't even know where to start? 

MusicMan

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Re: Khan's Jacksonville Shipyards Plans Revealed
« Reply #328 on: February 26, 2015, 09:51:43 AM »
Quote from jaxnyc79:

"What real risk is Shad Khan taking?"


He's risking everything in Jacksonville FL.  The most under performing waterfront city in North America.
With a City Government with a terrible track record of developing it's own best asset.

KenFSU

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Re: Khan's Jacksonville Shipyards Plans Revealed
« Reply #329 on: February 26, 2015, 10:05:20 AM »
^ Perfect response MM, and incredibly true.

Ennis, on the Landing, to me we're talking apples and oranges here. The Landing as it exists isn't perfect, but it has its use as a semi-iconic civic gathering space. Sleiman requested $12.8 million to basically neuter the space and turn it into a suburban apartment complex. Retail was limited, the courtyard that has become one of the primary gathering spots in the city was removed, and the thin strip of public space was separated from the "Landing" by a road. I don't get the impression that the public outcry was over the specific dollar contribution, but rather to the terrible design presented by Sleiman, coupled with his "taking my ball and going home" attitude when the city council suggested that public input was needed. If Sleiman's proposal would have been stronger and presented a new Landing that truly benefit the city, I think we would have seen a more favorable reaction.

Conversely, I think many, many, many (three manys!) people see Khan's proposed Shipyards development as a genuine way to increase quality of life in Jacksonville and kickstart a broader redevelopment of downtown at large. I think the average informed Jacksonville citizen realizes that no developer is going to clean up our mess for us, and that even if we have to open up the checkbook for remediation, riverwalk extension, and mooring of the USS Adams, these are all necessary improvements we'll eventually be on the hook for anyway.

Others might disagree, with I'm fine with the Shipyards being a short-term loss leader for a broader revitalization of downtown Jacksonville. We've already seen two major land purchases in the area partially credited to Khan's vision for the area (the Ford Plant, and the Drew Mansion in Springfield). Strategically, working with Khan ties the Jaguars to downtown Jacksonville, and puts the project in the hands of someone who has the drive, motivation, and capital to deliver as promised. And allocating the incremental tax revenue specifically for the Shipyards is fine in my book as well. Compare our sports complex -- which also receives specially allocated tax revenue for upkeep and remains one of the crown jewels of our city -- with the rest of our crumbling infrastructure.

I think the city can probably negotiate a better than 80-20 split, but other than that, I really don't see anything terribly unreasonable with the Jaguars' terms, particularly when you consider the opportunity cost of either a) doing nothing with the site, or b) bringing in another developer who may not have the same incentive or capital to see the project to conclusion.

People might hate him, but Paul Harden is a pretty smart guy. He's well aware of what the city can and cannot reasonably afford, and surely the Jaguars are familiar with how quickly capital improvement projects can die in Jacksonville if the developer asks for too much.

Terms can be negotiated, but in my opinion, the project is a no brainer.

The city will never develop the Shipyards on its own, and if they did, it would cost five times as much, take twice as long, and fall apart within a decade. It's the Jacksonville way.

No one has showed any genuine, credible interest in developing the site in a decade.

Now, you've got a multi-billionaire with international ties who is committed to Jacksonville, has an intimate understanding of the market, and who is shaking with excitement over developing the property. He's got a great vision that makes downtown a destination, solidifies one of our biggest assets (the Jaguars) in Jacksonville once their lease runs out, and serves to give Jacksonville something it has struggled for decades to gain -- a recognizable identity.

It's the right project in the right spot with the right developer at the right time.

Opportunities like this come around but once or twice in a lifetime in a city like Jacksonville.