Author Topic: Zimmerman Found Not Guilty  (Read 151322 times)

Jameson

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Re: Zimmerman Found Not Guilty
« Reply #315 on: July 16, 2013, 02:00:49 PM »
Wasn't it a few organized protests that brought the attention to this case?

The protests were based on race. Of it being a white vs. black issue. This narrative was spun in the media by people like Al Sharpton:

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism/2013/07/13/Media-Zimmerman-Coverage-Rap-Sheet




Cheshire Cat

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Re: Zimmerman Found Not Guilty
« Reply #316 on: July 16, 2013, 02:06:02 PM »
Ken I don't believe anyone thinks Zimmerman is not at fault.  It is just that fault lies in both parties. You can no more say Zimmerman instigated it than one can say Trayvon shouldn't have confronted. That's the point, had either one made an alternate choice the outcome would've been different.

Thankfully, as noted today, we are beginning to move from drawing lines in the sand and being defensive and starting to meet in the middle to assess and evaluate the situation. Hopefully, this will spur conversation to make less Trayvons and Zimmermans in the future.

Of course, by posting articles like that, we are making it a race issue
. Which Martin/Zimmerman wasn't in the eyes of the jury that made the decision.  So as long as we continue to base all opinions on race, we will never progress forward.  And that is our own faults. Either pushing it or allowing it to be pushed.

If both men had been black? 

If Martin had been white and Zimmerman black?

Does anyone SERIOUSLY think the outcome would have been the same?


Gloria, I think history has shown us that ones race as it goes to the propensity for crime is a factor in how the crime is perceived and how it is prosecuted.  I think this case became the media sensation that it is because race was put to the forefront and the reason that happened is different depending on agenda's.  Some of those political and some of those for media ratings. 

I do agree that if this crime had involved individuals of the same race it would have not made headlines.  I look at this particular situation as one where the guy who pulled the trigger was charged, prosecuted and found not guilty under the law as the laws are written and administered.  I think the jury of six women, five White and one not did follow the law without prejudice.  As the one juror who was interviewed said, they never talked about race during their deliberations and that they felt that Zimmerman thought that it was Trayvon's actions and not his race that made him suspect that night.  It was testified to that he was out in the rain, cutting through back yards and stopping to look in windows.  I think those actions could reasonably be viewed as suspicious in a community where there has been a rash of break ins without race being a factor.  I think if my own son was there that night dressed in a hoodie, cutting through back yards and peering into windows his actions would have been viewed as suspicious.  I also do not believe for a minute that the women of the jury did not weigh all of the evidence in order to come to a lawful verdict.

I think there are many cases that scream racism but this is not one of them.  Even if Zimmerman himself is a bigot, I don't believe it was Trayvon's race that called attention to him.  I think it was a variety of factors, perhaps including the hoodie.  I have asked my youngest son to never put up his hoodie when in public because it hides ones face.  I will admit that is a paranoia on my part but not because I think it would cause him to be profiled as a Black but because it could make him appear suspicious to some.

Zimmerman is a guy who was stupid enough to get out of his car a follow someone he found suspicious. It was shortsighted and ended up being tragic. 
« Last Edit: July 16, 2013, 02:08:33 PM by Cheshire Cat »

Cheshire Cat

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Re: Zimmerman Found Not Guilty
« Reply #317 on: July 16, 2013, 02:07:03 PM »
Ken I don't believe anyone thinks Zimmerman is not at fault.  It is just that fault lies in both parties. You can no more say Zimmerman instigated it than one can say Trayvon shouldn't have confronted. That's the point, had either one made an alternate choice the outcome would've been different.

Thankfully, as noted today, we are beginning to move from drawing lines in the sand and being defensive and starting to meet in the middle to assess and evaluate the situation. Hopefully, this will spur conversation to make less Trayvons and Zimmermans in the future.

Of course, by posting articles like that, we are making it a race issue
. Which Martin/Zimmerman wasn't in the eyes of the jury that made the decision.  So as long as we continue to base all opinions on race, we will never progress forward.  And that is our own faults. Either pushing it or allowing it to be pushed.

If both men had been black? 

If Martin had been white and Zimmerman black?

Does anyone SERIOUSLY think the outcome would have been the same?
(If both men had been black?) If this would have been the case the MEDIA wouldn't have covered the trial!



I agree. If Zimmerman and Martin were the same race, we would have never heard about the case. The media created and spun the racial narrative to fit their agenda since day one.

What a crock.  It came to national attention because of the Stand Your Ground Defense.  Followed by the cops not arresting the killer.

Thats national news anyway you slice it.

Irresponsible gun ownership that resulted in a legally covered murder.
Was it irresponsible gun ownership or the laws for stand your ground?

JayBird

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Re: Zimmerman Found Not Guilty
« Reply #318 on: July 16, 2013, 02:13:55 PM »
Ken I don't believe anyone thinks Zimmerman is not at fault.  It is just that fault lies in both parties. You can no more say Zimmerman instigated it than one can say Trayvon shouldn't have confronted. That's the point, had either one made an alternate choice the outcome would've been different.

Thankfully, as noted today, we are beginning to move from drawing lines in the sand and being defensive and starting to meet in the middle to assess and evaluate the situation. Hopefully, this will spur conversation to make less Trayvons and Zimmermans in the future.

Of course, by posting articles like that, we are making it a race issue
. Which Martin/Zimmerman wasn't in the eyes of the jury that made the decision.  So as long as we continue to base all opinions on race, we will never progress forward.  And that is our own faults. Either pushing it or allowing it to be pushed.

If both men had been black? 

If Martin had been white and Zimmerman black?

Does anyone SERIOUSLY think the outcome would have been the same?
(If both men had been black?) If this would have been the case the MEDIA wouldn't have covered the trial!



I agree. If Zimmerman and Martin were the same race, we would have never heard about the case. The media created and spun the racial narrative to fit their agenda since day one.

What a crock.  It came to national attention because of the Stand Your Ground Defense.  Followed by the cops not arresting the killer.

Thats national news anyway you slice it.

Irresponsible gun ownership that resulted in a legally covered murder.
Was it irresponsible gun ownership or the laws for stand your ground?

I would say both, the media was itching for something big to happen in Florida because such a controversial law was passed. And had Zimmerman been a responsible gun owner, he would've assessed the situation and only fired as a last resort, not some scrapes and bruises.  But personally, I feel Stand Your Ground is just a matchbox waiting in the kindling and should be a thread of its own.

Cheshire Cat

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Re: Zimmerman Found Not Guilty
« Reply #319 on: July 16, 2013, 02:17:05 PM »
« Last Edit: July 16, 2013, 02:23:22 PM by Cheshire Cat »

Cheshire Cat

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Re: Zimmerman Found Not Guilty
« Reply #320 on: July 16, 2013, 02:19:57 PM »
Stand your ground laws are irresponsible gun ownership.
They certainly allow for it.  No argument about that from me. 

Jameson

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Re: Zimmerman Found Not Guilty
« Reply #321 on: July 16, 2013, 02:24:27 PM »
Ken I don't believe anyone thinks Zimmerman is not at fault.  It is just that fault lies in both parties. You can no more say Zimmerman instigated it than one can say Trayvon shouldn't have confronted. That's the point, had either one made an alternate choice the outcome would've been different.

Thankfully, as noted today, we are beginning to move from drawing lines in the sand and being defensive and starting to meet in the middle to assess and evaluate the situation. Hopefully, this will spur conversation to make less Trayvons and Zimmermans in the future.

Of course, by posting articles like that, we are making it a race issue
. Which Martin/Zimmerman wasn't in the eyes of the jury that made the decision.  So as long as we continue to base all opinions on race, we will never progress forward.  And that is our own faults. Either pushing it or allowing it to be pushed.

If both men had been black? 

If Martin had been white and Zimmerman black?

Does anyone SERIOUSLY think the outcome would have been the same?
(If both men had been black?) If this would have been the case the MEDIA wouldn't have covered the trial!



I agree. If Zimmerman and Martin were the same race, we would have never heard about the case. The media created and spun the racial narrative to fit their agenda since day one.

What a crock.  It came to national attention because of the Stand Your Ground Defense.  Followed by the cops not arresting the killer.

Thats national news anyway you slice it.

Irresponsible gun ownership that resulted in a legally covered murder.


Ahhh, here's Stephen again --- Mr. "It's about race" -then- "No it's about irresponsible gun ownership".

Pick an angle you like and stick to it already.

Whether we like it or not, Zimmerman owned his gun legally and only used it as a last resort as he was being bloodied and pummeled and no one was coming to his aid. He felt his life was being threatened and a jury agreed with that.


Jameson

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Re: Zimmerman Found Not Guilty
« Reply #322 on: July 16, 2013, 02:26:16 PM »
Stand your ground laws are irresponsible gun ownership.

That is simply your opinion. That is not factual.

Demosthenes

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Re: Zimmerman Found Not Guilty
« Reply #323 on: July 16, 2013, 02:37:56 PM »
Guns are meant for self-defense. If you are a responsible conceal carry holder, and you are jumped, hit, and you think someone is reaching for your gun... you are defending yourself.

JeffreyS

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Re: Zimmerman Found Not Guilty
« Reply #324 on: July 16, 2013, 02:39:29 PM »
Ken I don't believe anyone thinks Zimmerman is not at fault.  It is just that fault lies in both parties. You can no more say Zimmerman instigated it than one can say Trayvon shouldn't have confronted. That's the point, had either one made an alternate choice the outcome would've been different.

Thankfully, as noted today, we are beginning to move from drawing lines in the sand and being defensive and starting to meet in the middle to assess and evaluate the situation. Hopefully, this will spur conversation to make less Trayvons and Zimmermans in the future.

Of course, by posting articles like that, we are making it a race issue
. Which Martin/Zimmerman wasn't in the eyes of the jury that made the decision.  So as long as we continue to base all opinions on race, we will never progress forward.  And that is our own faults. Either pushing it or allowing it to be pushed.

If both men had been black? 

If Martin had been white and Zimmerman black?

Does anyone SERIOUSLY think the outcome would have been the same?
(If both men had been black?) If this would have been the case the MEDIA wouldn't have covered the trial!



I agree. If Zimmerman and Martin were the same race, we would have never heard about the case. The media created and spun the racial narrative to fit their agenda since day one.

What a crock.  It came to national attention because of the Stand Your Ground Defense.  Followed by the cops not arresting the killer.

Thats national news anyway you slice it.

Irresponsible gun ownership that resulted in a legally covered murder.


Ahhh, here's Stephen again --- Mr. "It's about race" -then- "No it's about irresponsible gun ownership".

Pick an angle you like and stick to it already.

Whether we like it or not, Zimmerman owned his gun legally and only used it as a last resort as he was being bloodied and pummeled and no one was coming to his aid. He felt his life was being threatened and a jury agreed with that.



Last resort??? where as I have disagreed on a lot of your points none seemed foolish until this one but it is ridiculous.  He had lots of other options including minding his own damn business, firing a warning shot and my favorite don't use a gun in a fist fight.

Jameson

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Re: Zimmerman Found Not Guilty
« Reply #325 on: July 16, 2013, 02:40:11 PM »
Stand your ground laws are irresponsible gun ownership.

That is simply your opinion. That is not factual.

dude, guns arent meant to be a negotiation point in day to day living.  To treat them as such is irresponsible, and downright dangerous.

No, they're not. That's why we have gun laws, concealed weapons permits, etc.

I don't hear of guns being used as a negotiation point in day to day life. Do you? When's the last time you heard of someone using a gun to cut in line at the grocery store? Or negotiate a better dinner bill with their waiter? Or to get a better rate from their lawn guy? Oddly, I can't recall many incidents ever happening like this.

Surely, you can google and find an isolated incident (or 5) of some crazy who has done something like this before in an attempt to prove how commonly uncommon it might be.

strider

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Re: Zimmerman Found Not Guilty
« Reply #326 on: July 16, 2013, 02:43:35 PM »
So, you are walking down the street and some stalker walks up and grabs you in your privates.  You resist and you hit the guy in the face.  He pulls a legal gun and shoots you.  Today there is a very good chance he will get away with it.

This is what this case, this jury and what the court instructions told me.  Once the tables are turned and you, the initial victim, have the upper hand, "Stand Your Ground" switches from you to your attacker and he gains the protection.

I was feeling better believing it was all about race, Zimmerman got off because Martin was black  At least then it made sense.  Wasn't any more right, but one can understand it.  History and personal experience tells us it still happens more than we like it to.

The actual result without playing the race card? Now that is what is really scary. 


Jameson

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Re: Zimmerman Found Not Guilty
« Reply #327 on: July 16, 2013, 02:48:08 PM »
dude, guns arent meant to be a negotiation point in day to day living.  To treat them as such is irresponsible, and downright dangerous.

And I would totally suggest that you reconsider your fairly silly claims about my words.  I have said from the beginning that its about another gun owner murdering someone in cold blood, but getting away with it legally.

The race discussion was started by a fairly racist troll, and I responded to him.

Sorry that you are having trigger word issues.

You on page 19: "NO ONE questions the fact that profiling happened, and thats about as racist as it gets."


Cheshire Cat

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Re: Zimmerman Found Not Guilty
« Reply #328 on: July 16, 2013, 02:48:17 PM »
Ken I don't believe anyone thinks Zimmerman is not at fault.  It is just that fault lies in both parties. You can no more say Zimmerman instigated it than one can say Trayvon shouldn't have confronted. That's the point, had either one made an alternate choice the outcome would've been different.

Thankfully, as noted today, we are beginning to move from drawing lines in the sand and being defensive and starting to meet in the middle to assess and evaluate the situation. Hopefully, this will spur conversation to make less Trayvons and Zimmermans in the future.

Of course, by posting articles like that, we are making it a race issue
. Which Martin/Zimmerman wasn't in the eyes of the jury that made the decision.  So as long as we continue to base all opinions on race, we will never progress forward.  And that is our own faults. Either pushing it or allowing it to be pushed.

If both men had been black? 

If Martin had been white and Zimmerman black?

Does anyone SERIOUSLY think the outcome would have been the same?
(If both men had been black?) If this would have been the case the MEDIA wouldn't have covered the trial!



I agree. If Zimmerman and Martin were the same race, we would have never heard about the case. The media created and spun the racial narrative to fit their agenda since day one.

What a crock.  It came to national attention because of the Stand Your Ground Defense.  Followed by the cops not arresting the killer.

Thats national news anyway you slice it.

Irresponsible gun ownership that resulted in a legally covered murder.


Ahhh, here's Stephen again --- Mr. "It's about race" -then- "No it's about irresponsible gun ownership".

Pick an angle you like and stick to it already.

Whether we like it or not, Zimmerman owned his gun legally and only used it as a last resort as he was being bloodied and pummeled and no one was coming to his aid. He felt his life was being threatened and a jury agreed with that.



Last resort??? where as I have disagreed on a lot of your points none seemed foolish until this one but it is ridiculous.  He had lots of other options including minding his own damn business, firing a warning shot and my favorite don't use a gun in a fist fight.

Yes Jeffrey all those thing could have happened but they didn't.  If you watched the trial and listened to what was said about how the law applies to this situation the case turned on the fact that at the moment Zimmerman perceived he was at risk of "serious bodily harm" he could lawfully pull the trigger.  It is also speculation that this was or was not the only thing Zimmerman could have done.  The reality is that it did happen and the way the law is written today, along with the charges the State chose to go with which specifies a jury cannot convict if there is reasonable doubt is precisely why this case ended the way it did.  I am by no means absolving Zimmerman.  He should have kept his bottom in his car but he didn't.  Leaving his car was stupid, shortsighted, a whole bunch of things, but it wasn't illegal.  To me it looks like the law is what needs to be discussed and revisited.  Deciding after the fact who was responsible or not won't change the outcome.  When we the people think there is injustice in our system, we need to address that injustice and work to change the system. 
« Last Edit: July 16, 2013, 02:51:22 PM by Cheshire Cat »

JeffreyS

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Re: Zimmerman Found Not Guilty
« Reply #329 on: July 16, 2013, 02:50:19 PM »
I am glad you are back to making reasonable points. I agree the laws are the biggest problem in this case.

I am still wondering when he cocked that slide? Certainly the contention isn't that he pulled the gun during the fisticuffs (that were in this one magical instance going to lead to death), released the safety, operated the two hand action of the slide but then couldn't execute a warning shot or a leg shot  instead of a perfect "one shot one kill" style shot to the middle of TM's heart.