The Shipyards become new Green Space Downtown

[tufsu1]

How about a deal like Khan pays for the 50 million video boards to upgrade the stadium, a city asset that will also benefit him with increased revenues to the Jags.  The city then gives him the shipyard property and agrees that they will also pay for any contamination clean up to where the value of land and contamination costs are no more than say 125% of what he invests in the stadium.

I am fine with a deal like that....I'm just skeptical of giving the land to Khan for less than its true value AND spending $50 million on new video boards

The land has little value

BS....it is a large tract of land on the waterfront...and a large portion of it has been remediated and has a brand new bulkhead

[CityLife]

What about the city doing the project as a joint venture with Khan? COJ can use its staff and resources to find credits/tax breaks for environmental remediation, can use city staff to remediate the property, can give the land to Khan for free, use its bonding power/credit rating for lending (not that Khan needs it), and give a property tax abatement of some sort. The city might be able to more accurately capture the value of the land by getting a share of the profits, instead of just giving it to Khan.

I suspect Khan (and most private developers) wouldn't be game for that...and I imagine he has a little bargaining power when it comes to the city for these types of deals. Not saying Khan does do these type of things or would...but the threat of London (or elsewhere) is a nice bargaining chip in his back pocket.

[MEGATRON]

How about a deal like Khan pays for the 50 million video boards to upgrade the stadium, a city asset that will also benefit him with increased revenues to the Jags.  The city then gives him the shipyard property and agrees that they will also pay for any contamination clean up to where the value of land and contamination costs are no more than say 125% of what he invests in the stadium.

I am fine with a deal like that....I'm just skeptical of giving the land to Khan for less than its true value AND spending $50 million on new video boards

The land has little value

BS....it is a large tract of land on the waterfront

It has value, but not near what you probably think it is.

[MEGATRON]

What about the city doing the project as a joint venture with Khan? COJ can use its staff and resources to find credits/tax breaks for environmental remediation, can use city staff to remediate the property, can give the land to Khan for free, use its bonding power/credit rating for lending (not that Khan needs it), and give a property tax abatement of some sort. The city might be able to more accurately capture the value of the land by getting a share of the profits, instead of just giving it to Khan.

I suspect Khan (and most private developers) wouldn't be game for that...and I imagine he has a little bargaining power when it comes to the city for these types of deals. Not saying Khan does do these type of things or would...but the threat of London (or elsewhere) is a nice bargaining chip in his back pocket.

The City environmental staff is limited and has its hands full with ash remediation and multiple otehr waste sites.

[CityLife]

What about the city doing the project as a joint venture with Khan? COJ can use its staff and resources to find credits/tax breaks for environmental remediation, can use city staff to remediate the property, can give the land to Khan for free, use its bonding power/credit rating for lending (not that Khan needs it), and give a property tax abatement of some sort. The city might be able to more accurately capture the value of the land by getting a share of the profits, instead of just giving it to Khan.

I suspect Khan (and most private developers) wouldn't be game for that...and I imagine he has a little bargaining power when it comes to the city for these types of deals. Not saying Khan does do these type of things or would...but the threat of London (or elsewhere) is a nice bargaining chip in his back pocket.

The City environmental staff is limited and has its hands full with ash remediation and multiple otehr waste sites.

The tax credit/incentives/brownfields aspect is something for the Office of Economic Development and/or Planning Department to do. The physical clean up aspect would be down the road.

[simms3]

The land has no value for the following reasons:

1) It's in Jacksonville
2) It's in downtown Jacksonville
3) The city doesn't appear to have worked through all the hurdles it needs to divest the land
4) People in the know are still talking about serious contamination
5) It's in Jacksonville

I think the city holds on, looks for a partner (maybe it's Khan, maybe it's another public entity or the port), and does what it needs to reposition the land for public use and for recapturing some of those expenses through sale to private entities or ground leases, etc (I don't think the land should be in complete control of private hands).

Value is this (3 latest land deals in DT SF):
Hines/BP paying $192M for 50,000 SF ($167M an acre or $3,840/sf)
TMG/Northwood paying $122M for 49,946 SF ($106M an acre or $2,443/sf)
Jay Paul paying $75M for 15,312 SF site ($214M an acre or $4,898/sf)


Miami Herald sold the land under its building for $236M (14 acres, $16.9M an acre or $387/sf)

In a very similar deal for a very similar piece of land in Oakland:

Ten years after going into escrow, the developers behind Brooklyn Basin, a 64-acre waterfront development in Oakland, closed on a deal Monday to buy the land for $18 million from the State Lands Commission and the Port of Oakland.
 
The developers agreed to the price in 2003 when the deal was first negotiated. At the time, the land was valued at $34 million with about $16 million needed for clean up and remediation.

http://www.bizjournals.com/sanfrancisco/blog/real-estate/2013/06/brooklyn-basin-site-sells-for-18.html

The developers have since secured $1.5B in financing from a Chinese investment entity for development of the site.  I have already put up renderings, but given that this site is different from the Shipyards in that Oakland's real waterfront is Lake Merritt, which is public all the way around, and this site is merely a condo/public land deal in a formerly industrial and distressed area of Oakland, I don't think it's totally apples to apples.  The Shipyards is one of the only potentially public waterfront land sites in all of NE FL and is downtown.  It can't be a straight condo deal (nor would it - we're talking Jacksonville here).


http://www.brooklynbasin.com/
http://www.socketsite.com/archives/2013/04/oaklands_66acre_brooklyn_basin_development_finally_fund.html

[Tacachale]

The land is worth $29 according to the last estimate I saw. There is still work that needs to be done, including cleaning up the contamination and completing the bulkhead. At the same time, though, the value will increase as property values go up. A lot of money was lost when TriLegacy defrauded the city, but the city also acquired the land in the settlement.

[simms3]

^^^Is the land being marketed?

[Tacachale]

^The city isn't looking to sell off the property wholesale now that they own it. That part of it is good, the city should be a partner in whatever happens and there should be public space on the property, at least including the piers and riverwalk. Unfortunately there isn't any plan at all right now.

[MEGATRON]

^The city isn't looking to sell off the property wholesale now that they own it. That part of it is good, the city should be a partner in whatever happens and there should be public space on the property, at least including the piers and riverwalk. Unfortunately there isn't any plan at all right now.

Absolutely not unless you want the city to be liable for the remediation.  The City needs to sell it relatively quickly.

[MEGATRON]

What about the city doing the project as a joint venture with Khan? COJ can use its staff and resources to find credits/tax breaks for environmental remediation, can use city staff to remediate the property, can give the land to Khan for free, use its bonding power/credit rating for lending (not that Khan needs it), and give a property tax abatement of some sort. The city might be able to more accurately capture the value of the land by getting a share of the profits, instead of just giving it to Khan.

I suspect Khan (and most private developers) wouldn't be game for that...and I imagine he has a little bargaining power when it comes to the city for these types of deals. Not saying Khan does do these type of things or would...but the threat of London (or elsewhere) is a nice bargaining chip in his back pocket.

The City environmental staff is limited and has its hands full with ash remediation and multiple otehr waste sites.

The tax credit/incentives/brownfields aspect is something for the Office of Economic Development and/or Planning Department to do. The physical clean up aspect would be down the road.

The City never does physical cleanup.  That is handled through outside consultants.

[tufsu1]

The land has no value for the following reasons:

1) It's in Jacksonville

so if I understand you correctly, all property in Jacksonville is worth nothing?

If that's the case, why do people continue buying homes and land...and why do they get financing?

[CityLife]

What about the city doing the project as a joint venture with Khan? COJ can use its staff and resources to find credits/tax breaks for environmental remediation, can use city staff to remediate the property, can give the land to Khan for free, use its bonding power/credit rating for lending (not that Khan needs it), and give a property tax abatement of some sort. The city might be able to more accurately capture the value of the land by getting a share of the profits, instead of just giving it to Khan.

I suspect Khan (and most private developers) wouldn't be game for that...and I imagine he has a little bargaining power when it comes to the city for these types of deals. Not saying Khan does do these type of things or would...but the threat of London (or elsewhere) is a nice bargaining chip in his back pocket.

The City environmental staff is limited and has its hands full with ash remediation and multiple otehr waste sites.

The tax credit/incentives/brownfields aspect is something for the Office of Economic Development and/or Planning Department to do. The physical clean up aspect would be down the road.

The City never does physical cleanup.  That is handled through outside consultants.

Correct...but the city has more capacity and experience to lead an environmental remediation than Khan would. So under the joint venture public/private partnership with Khan and the City, you let Khan do things that a private sector developer can do best and let COJ do things that a city with an extensive and diverse staff can do best. Although given the way things work with the COJ, you could probably make an argument that private sector consultants/contractors can do virtually everything better.

[carpnter]

I think the biggest obstacle is the alleged contamination of the site.  Remediation costs can be very expensive and can have numerous unforseens that can create significant cost overruns in the cleanup.  That is the biggest thing affecting the value of the property, if the numbers can't support cleanup costs along with the costs to acquire and develop the property, the city is going to be stuck holding it and as long the numbers don't support developing it, the property is pretty much worthless.

[Tacachale]

^The city isn't looking to sell off the property wholesale now that they own it. That part of it is good, the city should be a partner in whatever happens and there should be public space on the property, at least including the piers and riverwalk. Unfortunately there isn't any plan at all right now.

Absolutely not unless you want the city to be liable for the remediation.  The City needs to sell it relatively quickly.

Whatever happens, it should be an absolute requirement that there is public access, at least including the piers and Riverwalk. We don't need more inaccessible waterfront, especially downtown. The city already owns the land currently and has for three years.